Is the Left Losing the Gun Control Debate?

[Cow Poke]

I'm just asking.

I've seen several polls lately that show that young people (who Sam indicated needed to be persuaded) were LESS likely to be in favor of gun control.

I think you misunderstand. I'm not out here looking to persuade the tin-foil nutjobs who are going to fight (maybe quite literally) to oppose any and every gun regulation that has a chance of reducing these kinds of crimes and deaths. That's a useless endeavor, as Jonathan Swift noted. The goal is to showcase how irrational and even depraved their reasoning can be. The hearts and minds gun control advocates need to win are not those of the staunch gun-freedom-at-any-cost crowd. That's not possible. It's the folks on the outside and, most likely, the younger generations.

I'll post some of those polls in a bit, but I need to get to a lunch engagement.

[Rational Gaze]

Well, anybody with more than half a brain can see that the data is clearly against gun control advocates, so we can only hope so.

[Adam]

Just warning you guys in advance that "they" will be posting here soon about how well gun control works in various countries similar to us.
Just worth pondering, however, maybe it does not matter in "those" countries that citizens may be largely without guns even for self-defense, just as long as they are advanced countries with CLOSE POLICE CONTROL and which it does not matter if a particular country turns distatorial, but the U. S. is exceptional in that if in our country the citizens can't defend themselves against the one over-archingly powerful government in the world, there is no defense against world tyranny by that one unimpeded government. Which cartoon character was it who said, "I have seen the enemy, and he is us!" (No, I don't recall the context, what he--the cartoonist--meant.)

[rogue06]

I'm just asking.

I've seen several polls lately that show that young people (who Sam indicated needed to be persuaded) were LESS likely to be in favor of gun control.




I'll post some of those polls in a bit, but I need to get to a lunch engagement.

It tends to fluctuate. Right now it seems that most realize that criminals tend to by definition ignore laws and adding another one for them to ignore won't change things very much.

[Psychic Missile]

It tends to fluctuate. Right now it seems that most realize that criminals tend to by definition ignore laws and adding another one for them to ignore won't change things very much.

I'm pretty sure most spree shooters aren't career criminals. They're generally law-abiding except for their shooting.

[Starlight]

Right now it seems that most realize that criminals tend to by definition ignore laws and adding another one for them to ignore won't change things very much.

Regulations about gun sales are designed to stop law abiding citizens selling guns to criminals or to the mentally ill. The criminal can be as willing as they like to violate the law, but if the law abiding gun shop owner isn't willing to sell the gun without a background check and knowing the customer has a valid gun license, then the willing criminal isn't going to be able to purchase a gun from that store.

[Cow Poke]

Regulations about gun sales are designed to stop law abiding citizens selling guns to criminals or to the mentally ill.

No. Not even CLOSE. A private citizen can sell guns to anybody he wants.

The criminal can be as willing as they like to violate the law, but if the law abiding gun shop owner isn't willing to sell the gun without a background check and knowing the customer has a valid gun license, then the willing criminal isn't going to be able to purchase a gun from that store.

The criminal has PLENTY of other options - he's not going to want to buy a gun that can be traced to a store. I really don't think you have a clue about this issue at all.

[Cow Poke]

I'm pretty sure most spree shooters aren't career criminals. They're generally law-abiding except for their shooting.

I think that's true, but there were usually plenty of signs of trouble, but we seem to have this phobia against following up on those signs.

[Catholicity]

I think that's true, but there were usually plenty of signs of trouble, but we seem to have this phobia against following up on those signs.

I agree with this. The phobia is committing someone for expressing homicidal tendencies and of course FIXING a very broken mental health system...... But that's not on the political "agenda" for anyone right now.

[rogue06]

I'm pretty sure most spree shooters aren't career criminals. They're generally law-abiding except for their shooting.

The very fact that they decide to go out and murder a bunch of people kind of shows that they aren't exactly concerned with such niceties as what is and what is not legal. They usually violate a slew of laws setting up their shooting spree not to mention the laws that they ignore when they commit it. Yeah, pass another law. That will be the one that makes them stop and think, "Hey. What I'm about to do is against the law. I better not do that."

Moreover such shootings account for only a tiny fraction of the shooting deaths.

My point still stands.

[rogue06]

Regulations about gun sales are designed to stop law abiding citizens selling guns to criminals or to the mentally ill. The criminal can be as willing as they like to violate the law, but if the law abiding gun shop owner isn't willing to sell the gun without a background check and knowing the customer has a valid gun license, then the willing criminal isn't going to be able to purchase a gun from that store.

Very few criminals walk into a gun store, sporting goods store or whatever and purchase their firearms

[Sam]

I agree with this. The phobia is committing someone for expressing homicidal tendencies and of course FIXING a very broken mental health system...... But that's not on the political "agenda" for anyone right now.

Both the House and the Senate currently have mental health reform bills in committee; the Mental Health Reform Act of 2015 has 10 co-sponsors in the Senate, five from each party.

[Sam]

The very fact that they decide to go out and murder a bunch of people kind of shows that they aren't exactly concerned with such niceties as what is and what is not legal. They usually violate a slew of laws setting up their shooting spree not to mention the laws that they ignore when they commit it. Yeah, pass another law. That will be the one that makes them stop and think, "Hey. What I'm about to do is against the law. I better not do that."

Moreover such shootings account for only a tiny fraction of the shooting deaths.

My point still stands.

If this objection were true, we would expect to see some sort of parity in mass shootings between countries that had strict gun regulation and countries that had loose gun regulation. Notably, we do not see that sort of parity, showing that gun regulations really can and do affect not only mass shootings or the firearm-related homicide rate but the homicide rate on the whole.

[rogue06]

If this objection were true, we would expect to see some sort of parity in mass shootings between countries that had strict gun regulation and countries that had loose gun regulation. Notably, we do not see that sort of parity, showing that gun regulations really can and do affect not only mass shootings or the firearm-related homicide rate but the homicide rate on the whole.

It isn't the laws Sam. It's the culture. Or else we would be seeing much higher shooting rates in places like Switzerland where people keep fully automatic weapons in their closets.

[Sam]

It isn't the laws Sam. It's the culture. Or else we would be seeing much higher shooting rates in places like Switzerland where people keep fully automatic weapons in their closets.

Well, that's unfalsifiable. But I really doubt that the culture in the USA is somehow so drastically different than every single advanced country that it's more prone to homicides and mass shootings. Meanwhile, we know the correlation between gun ownership and regulation strongly influences these crimes.

Claiming "culture" is purely diversionary -- what's the relevant culture difference between the USA and Australia? France? Canada?