Can someone explain to me this idea of Mary the mother of God? Also the praying to Mary to talk to Jesus on our behalf? Where do these ideas come from and what do others think of the concept? I hope this is the right place to post this.
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Originally posted by Papa Zoom View PostCan someone explain to me this idea of Mary the mother of God? Also the praying to Mary to talk to Jesus on our behalf? Where do these ideas come from and what do others think of the concept? I hope this is the right place to post this.
I'm reminded of the first miracle of Jesus as recorded by John, in which Mary, the "Mother of God", told Jesus that they had run out of wine. She then told the servants to listen to Jesus and do whatever He says. So, rather than trying to be the spokesman for Jesus, or intercede on His (or the servants') behalf, she simply told them "Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it".The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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I'm not Catholic or Orthodox so I don't have a dog in the fight about praying to her, but the title of "Mother of God" is an extension of the orthodox understanding of the two natures of Christ. There were some groups that preferred the term "Christotokos," i.e. "Christ-bearer" as opposed to "Theotokos" (God-bearer), but eventually theotokos was accepted as the formal title because "Christotokos," even though valid, allows for those who do not accept the orthodox understanding of Jesus as fully God and fully man into the discussion. According to the two natures of Christ, Jesus would have had to be fully man and fully God from the moment of conception.
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Originally posted by Papa Zoom View PostCan someone explain to me this idea of Mary the mother of God? Also the praying to Mary to talk to Jesus on our behalf? Where do these ideas come from and what do others think of the concept? I hope this is the right place to post this.
The "Mother of G-d" title is based on the idea the Jesus is a divine person: Jesus is G-d, mary was the mother of Jesus. In the natural order, a mother is older than the child. But note that most Christians do accept the Fatherhood of G-d but do not accept that the Father is older than the Son.
Praying to mary is related to the doctrine of communion of saints, the idea that all are connected in a special way. It can even be described as an organism, a living thing (can grow and parts can die off). So the dead in Christ are also alive in a very special way (maybe more alive than we are). Other Christians can intercede (that is pray for us or help us in some way). Should that ability, or maybe its an obligation, be removed at the end of our natural life? Jesus may be our eldest brother in the supernatural order; if He had a mother wouldn't that make Mary our mother also?
Where do they come from? That is a harder question to answer. The Catholics will say (and I am catholic) that it goes back to the bible, and the earliest apostolic times. But also when we look at history, the challenges and controversies of the first several centuries of the church show that those ideas were hammered out with great difficulty. Nestorians, Monophysites, monothelites, arianism (and all the other errors) also make sense biblically and philosophically: but they also have implications or entailments which led to their rejection.
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Originally posted by simplicio View PostHi Papazoom.
The "Mother of G-d" title is based on the idea the Jesus is a divine person: Jesus is G-d, mary was the mother of Jesus. In the natural order, a mother is older than the child. But note that most Christians do accept the Fatherhood of G-d but do not accept that the Father is older than the Son.
Praying to mary is related to the doctrine of communion of saints, the idea that all are connected in a special way. It can even be described as an organism, a living thing (can grow and parts can die off). So the dead in Christ are also alive in a very special way (maybe more alive than we are). Other Christians can intercede (that is pray for us or help us in some way). Should that ability, or maybe its an obligation, be removed at the end of our natural life? Jesus may be our eldest brother in the supernatural order; if He had a mother wouldn't that make Mary our mother also?
Where do they come from? That is a harder question to answer. The Catholics will say (and I am catholic) that it goes back to the bible, and the earliest apostolic times. But also when we look at history, the challenges and controversies of the first several centuries of the church show that those ideas were hammered out with great difficulty. Nestorians, Monophysites, monothelites, arianism (and all the other errors) also make sense biblically and philosophically: but they also have implications or entailments which led to their rejection.
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Originally posted by Papa Zoom View PostThanks. But how does praying to Mary square with 1 Timothy 2:5 that there is but one mediator between us and God? And there doesn't seem to be any direct support for praying to departed believers.
The role of mediation of Mary is not parallel to, but is subordinate to, the mediation of Christ. Immediately before the passage (2Tim 2:5-6), St Paul urges that supplication, thanksgiving, and intercession be made for all. The ministerial role of mediation doesn't replace Christ's role, but it ought to help his role and emphasize it. ....the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold co-operation which is but a sharing in this one source" (Lumen gentium, 62).
Maybe it comes down to how we view being human and being Christian. We were made for society, it is not good to be alone. The society which we call the Body of Christ includes those which have passed through the grave.
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Originally posted by simplicio View PostI would hope that if I were in need that you would pray for me (and even when not in need, I still need prayers). But that does not diminish our need for the Christ. The departed are indeed dead, but what does it mean to be dead, for the Christian? How do we square that with the idea of life after death?
The role of mediation of Mary is not parallel to, but is subordinate to, the mediation of Christ. Immediately before the passage (2Tim 2:5-6), St Paul urges that supplication, thanksgiving, and intercession be made for all. The ministerial role of mediation doesn't replace Christ's role, but it ought to help his role and emphasize it. ....the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold co-operation which is but a sharing in this one source" (Lumen gentium, 62).
Maybe it comes down to how we view being human and being Christian. We were made for society, it is not good to be alone. The society which we call the Body of Christ includes those which have passed through the grave.
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Originally posted by Papa Zoom View PostPraying for you is far different than praying TO you.
I can't see how praying for the dead does any good (like what exactly would one pray for?).
Once we are away from the body we are home with the Lord. The Bible is clear on this.
And if I want to talk to God I can do so directly and neither Mary nor "saints" are necessary.
Even more than that, it seems clear to me that praying to someone other than through Christ amounts to nothing.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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Papa Zoom, I'm curious: having heard the explanation, what's your current opinion of the idea of calling Mary the "mother of God"? Would you feel comfortable referring to her as such, knowing that the title was originally intended as an affirmation of Christ's full divinity (and the Catholics and Orthodox have never understood it to mean anything else)? If someone on the street asked you whether you think Mary was mother of God, what would you say?Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.
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Originally posted by Spartacus View PostPapa Zoom, I'm curious: having heard the explanation, what's your current opinion of the idea of calling Mary the "mother of God"? Would you feel comfortable referring to her as such, knowing that the title was originally intended as an affirmation of Christ's full divinity (and the Catholics and Orthodox have never understood it to mean anything else)? If someone on the street asked you whether you think Mary was mother of God, what would you say?
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Originally posted by Papa Zoom View PostPraying for you is far different than praying TO you. I can't see how praying for the dead does any good (like what exactly would one pray for?). Once we are away from the body we are home with the Lord. The Bible is clear on this. And if I want to talk to God I can do so directly and neither Mary nor "saints" are necessary. Even more than that, it seems clear to me that praying to someone other than through Christ amounts to nothing.
The Catholic view is that those who have ended their natural life are not necessarily cut off from the living, the Church uses terms like church militant and church triumphant to categorize Christians. Just as if I asked you to pray for me does not imply that the grace received is not from you but from the Lord, and is not an end run around going to the Lord. To go to you, a fellow Christian is a form of praying TO you; those in heaven are also fellow Christians, but have a closeness to G-d which few Christians this side of the grave have.
But Mary and the saints are not necessary in the same way that other Christians are not necessary. One can attain heaven all alone, but we were made for society, and we have been given the church and the Body of Christ as a society. This society has a purpose, to help us and strengthen us. Mary and the saints are part of that society. And if Jesus is important, would His mother be inconsequential?
The practice of praying for the dead is related to a different (but related) topic concerning how salvation is applied to the human person and the effects of salvation on the human person and nature. The question has to do with purgatory.
I will ask this: just what is the bible clear on, and how is it different from my point of view? To be absent from the bible and present with the Lord is an idea which is biblical, but I don't think there is a proof text for it. 2 Cor 5:8 does not exactly say that.
You do realize that the arguments you are advancing here are also arguments against the idea of praying for one another?
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Papa Zoom, I also do not pray to dead saints, but I understand their practice. "Pray" comes from a Latin word that means to "entreat," or "ask earnestly." It is not to be confused with worship. You may worship while praying, but prayer is not necessarily worship, any more than singing, dancing, or getting dipped in water are worship by definition, (and I'm a great fan of using prayer, singing, and dancing in worship, and would happily call baptism worship.) So anyways, when you ask a living saint, such as an elder at church, or that kind older lady who serves without anyone asking her or thanking her for it, or that young person with a smile on their face, asking them earnestly to intercede for you to God (which is Biblical and is common at every church I've ever heard of) is effectively the same as asking dead saints to pray for you from the Catholic and Orthodox perspectives, except those dead saints are already with the Lord. I disagree with this because I do not see a good Scriptural reason to say that the dead are presently aware of the living, but I have no reason to condemn them for their practice of it.Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5
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Originally posted by simplicio View PostI do notice that you are wandering away from the original questions in the OP.
The Catholic view is that those who have ended their natural life are not necessarily cut off from the living, the Church uses terms like church militant and church triumphant to categorize Christians. Just as if I asked you to pray for me does not imply that the grace received is not from you but from the Lord, and is not an end run around going to the Lord. To go to you, a fellow Christian is a form of praying TO you; those in heaven are also fellow Christians, but have a closeness to G-d which few Christians this side of the grave have.
But Mary and the saints are not necessary in the same way that other Christians are not necessary. One can attain heaven all alone, but we were made for society, and we have been given the church and the Body of Christ as a society. This society has a purpose, to help us and strengthen us. Mary and the saints are part of that society. And if Jesus is important, would His mother be inconsequential?
The practice of praying for the dead is related to a different (but related) topic concerning how salvation is applied to the human person and the effects of salvation on the human person and nature. The question has to do with purgatory.
I will ask this: just what is the bible clear on, and how is it different from my point of view? To be absent from the bible and present with the Lord is an idea which is biblical, but I don't think there is a proof text for it. 2 Cor 5:8 does not exactly say that.
You do realize that the arguments you are advancing here are also arguments against the idea of praying for one another?
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Originally posted by Pentecost View PostPapa Zoom, I also do not pray to dead saints, but I understand their practice. "Pray" comes from a Latin word that means to "entreat," or "ask earnestly." It is not to be confused with worship. You may worship while praying, but prayer is not necessarily worship, any more than singing, dancing, or getting dipped in water are worship by definition, (and I'm a great fan of using prayer, singing, and dancing in worship, and would happily call baptism worship.) So anyways, when you ask a living saint, such as an elder at church, or that kind older lady who serves without anyone asking her or thanking her for it, or that young person with a smile on their face, asking them earnestly to intercede for you to God (which is Biblical and is common at every church I've ever heard of) is effectively the same as asking dead saints to pray for you from the Catholic and Orthodox perspectives, except those dead saints are already with the Lord. I disagree with this because I do not see a good Scriptural reason to say that the dead are presently aware of the living, but I have no reason to condemn them for their practice of it.
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