Mary Mother of God

[Celebrian]

Prayer can have a worship association, but it does not necessarily mean that. It is only within Protestantism that prayer in a religious context is equated to worship due God alone. And as far as I can tell from Orthodox experience, prayer to the saints is facilitated by the Holy Spirit, who is omniscient and omnipresent.

Thank you to you and simplicio -- I am truly trying to understand something I was taught was wrong. Theology Web has helped me get past some of my overly fundamentalist (as in everyone else is wrong) upbringing. It helps to know that those praying to dead saints don't think they are worshipping them but see it the same as talking to a Christian on earth. I may just not be able to get past my early indoctrination. I guess I also don't see the necessity for prayer to saints, but then I rarely ask others on earth to pray for me either.

[One Bad Pig]

Thank you to you and simplicio -- I am truly trying to understand something I was taught was wrong. Theology Web has helped me get past some of my overly fundamentalist (as in everyone else is wrong) upbringing. It helps to know that those praying to dead saints don't think they are worshipping them but see it the same as talking to a Christian on earth. I may just not be able to get past my early indoctrination. I guess I also don't see the necessity for prayer to saints, but then I rarely ask others on earth to pray for me either.

I grew up evangelical fundamental; it wasn't easy for me to get past either.

[arnoldo]

I have never felt inclined to pray to Mary, but I certainly don't discourages others if they feel so led.

This video emphatically discourages anyone to pray to "Mary."

[Spartacus]

This video emphatically discourages anyone to pray to "Mary."

From skipping quickly through various points in the video, I notice he focuses on Medjugorie, which is something that a number of Catholics like, but which a lot of other Catholics hold in suspicion. Unlike Fatima and Lourdes, it's not among the Vatican-approved apparitions.

[arnoldo]

From skipping quickly through various points in the video, I notice he focuses on Medjugorie, which is something that a number of Catholics like, but which a lot of other Catholics hold in suspicion. Unlike Fatima and Lourdes, it's not among the Vatican-approved apparitions.

Who knows what Bernadette Soubirous saw at Lourdes. .
Bernadette_soubirous_2_publicdomain.gif330px-Jacinta_marto_lucia_santos.jpg

[robrecht]

From skipping quickly through various points in the video, I notice he focuses on Medjugorie, which is something that a number of Catholics like, but which a lot of other Catholics hold in suspicion. Unlike Fatima and Lourdes, it's not among the Vatican-approved apparitions.

There's a National Geographic documentary on some of the cult-like followers of Medjugorje, especially a community called Caritas in Birmingham, Alabama. Some people are expecting Pope Francis to make some type of pronouncement about Medjugorje and supposedly he has been giving some cautiously ambiguous or critical indications that it may not be entirely positive. There's also a more general article about Marian devotion in the December issue of National Geographic. Online version here: http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/20...rgin-mary-text

[One Bad Pig]

From skipping quickly through various points in the video, I notice he focuses on Medjugorie, which is something that a number of Catholics like, but which a lot of other Catholics hold in suspicion. Unlike Fatima and Lourdes, it's not among the Vatican-approved apparitions.

The article referenced also primarily focuses on apparitions, particularly that of Medjugorie, and tends to pick and choose a couple things out of larger lists to argue against. He shows no awareness of how universal any of these are, and shows no awareness of Eastern practices except for a stray reference to Copts. I agree that veneration of Mary can go too far, but that's hardly a valid reason to not venerate her at all.

[Cerebrum123]

Since the video is so long, I checked out the article it's based on. It's much shorter than the video IMO. It doesn't just talk about Medjugorie, it speaks of other appearances. Fatima being one of the more in depth ones(although they are all rather short).

[Spartacus]

Since the video is so long, I checked out the article it's based on. It's much shorter than the video IMO. It doesn't just talk about Medjugorie, it speaks of other appearances. Fatima being one of the more in depth ones(although they are all rather short).

40-minute videos of people slowly saying the words that are also appearing on-screen are just so engrossing: how could you not watch the whole thing?

The argument that Catholicism steals from various pagan mythologies is about as credible and persuasive as the Jesus=Mithra=Osiris garbage. It analyses things as though there is no such thing as a coincidence, or a symbol that can be used in different ways in different contexts.

To top it all off, there's the fact that the piece begins by analyzing a contemporary song, and a fairly trite one even by contemporary standards.

[Cerebrum123]

40-minute videos of people slowly saying the words that are also appearing on-screen are just so engrossing: how could you not watch the whole thing?

The argument that Catholicism steals from various pagan mythologies is about as credible and persuasive as the Jesus=Mithra=Osiris garbage. It analyses things as though there is no such thing as a coincidence, or a symbol that can be used in different ways in different contexts.

I agree with you here. To be fair, I think that it is in principle possible to show a connection between various beliefs*. Although I haven't seen any that I'm convinced of for Catholicism at this point.

To top it all off, there's the fact that the piece begins by analyzing a contemporary song, and a fairly trite one even by contemporary standards.

I didn't watch, or listen. I saw that it was ~40 minutes long, and decided it wasn't worth watching. Since I'm a fast reader I skipped straight to the article. I might take another better look at it later. Right now my energy is sapped with the recent cold weather. I posted the link just in case others didn't want to watch the video, but wanted to see the arguments.

*Islam and certain ancient pagan practices/beliefs come to mind. Not going to argue that here though.

[arnoldo]

40-minute videos of people slowly saying the words that are also appearing on-screen are just so engrossing: how could you not watch the whole thing?

The argument that Catholicism steals from various pagan mythologies is about as credible and persuasive as the Jesus=Mithra=Osiris garbage. It analyses things as though there is no such thing as a coincidence, or a symbol that can be used in different ways in different contexts.

To top it all off, there's the fact that the piece begins by analyzing a contemporary song, and a fairly trite one even by contemporary standards.

So you believe the Marian apparitions are genuine?

[Spartacus]

I agree with you here. To be fair, I think that it is in principle possible to show a connection between various beliefs*. Although I haven't seen any that I'm convinced of for Catholicism at this point.

*Islam and certain ancient pagan practices/beliefs come to mind. Not going to argue that here though.

The connections and contrasts between various Scriptural paradigms and the worldviews and myths of their neighbors are fairly interesting to me. That Catholicism is warmed-over Babylonian mythology is hilariously absurd, but at every point in salvation history, God's self-revelation made use of cultural context.

I didn't watch, or listen. I saw that it was ~40 minutes long, and decided it wasn't worth watching. Since I'm a fast reader I skipped straight to the article. I might take another better look at it later. Right now my energy is sapped with the recent cold weather. I posted the link just in case others didn't want to watch the video, but wanted to see the arguments.

I recognized the lyrics. THAT SONG IS SO BLAND.

[One Bad Pig]

This video emphatically discourages anyone to pray to "Mary."

This article from the same source castigatesyour hero T. B. Joshua in no less uncertain terms. Why should we believe him on the on hand, but not on the other?

[Spartacus]

So you believe the Marian apparitions are genuine?

They could be, but honestly, I don't really care much about them. My personal suspicion is that the Medjugorie visionaries running around having regularly scheduled revelations are faking it it for money, but I actually don't know much about any apparitions other than the ones at Lourdes and Fatima, which have miraculous events associated with them.

[arnoldo]

This article from the same source castigatesyour hero T. B. Joshua in no less uncertain terms. Why should we believe him on the on hand, but not on the other?

I don't know, maybe Sandy Simpson is wrong on both accounts?