Mary Mother of God

[Spartacus]

This article from the same source castigatesyour hero T. B. Joshua in no less uncertain terms. Why should we believe him on the on hand, but not on the other?

Does it really matter? We could find 50 other videos or websites advancing the same boilerplate arguments against devotion to Mary; given time, our friend would probably find a source that doesn't say anything he finds too objectionable.

Unless your point is more closely related arnoldo's allegiance to T.B. Joshua than whatever suspicion he may have of Marian devotions?

[One Bad Pig]

Does it really matter? We could find 50 other videos or websites advancing the same boilerplate arguments against devotion to Mary; given time, our friend would probably find a source that doesn't say anything he finds too objectionable.

Unless your point is more closely related arnoldo's allegiance to T.B. Joshua than whatever suspicion he may have of Marian devotions?

Just pointing out his uncritical use of the source. I found his response interesting.

[theophilus]

Have any of you considered how Mary might feel about being called the Mother of God? Here is one possibility:

https://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0040/0040_01.asp

[Faber]

I personally have no respect for Jack Chick.

[One Bad Pig]

Have any of you considered how Mary might feel about being called the Mother of God? Here is one possibility:

https://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0040/0040_01.asp

Chick!?

[Leonhard]

Have any of you considered how Mary might feel about being called the Mother of God? Here is one possibility:

https://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0040/0040_01.asp

I think she fully approves that title.

Beyond that using a Chick tract as an argument is auto-fail on this forum.

[simplicio]

I think she fully approves that title.

Beyond that using a Chick tract as an argument is auto-fail on this forum.

Some of us collect Chick tracts! And I'm catholic, they are absurdly funny.

[One Bad Pig]

Some of us collect Chick tracts! And I'm catholic, they are absurdly funny.

No Death Cookie for you!

[Marta]

Can someone explain to me this idea of Mary the mother of God? Also the praying to Mary to talk to Jesus on our behalf? Where do these ideas come from and what do others think of the concept? I hope this is the right place to post this.

The idea came from the fact that in the old Testament some believed that angels carried our prayers to God. Well, in believing with that thought, "Teacher,” they said, “Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and raise up offspring for him. 25 Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. 26The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. 27 Finally, the woman died. 28 Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”

29Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’b ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

However, we know that:

Hebrews 1:1-3 It was in many parts and in many ways that God spoke to our fathers in the prophets in time gone past; but in the end of these days he has spoken to us in One who is a Son, a Son whom he destined to enter into possession of all things, a Son by whose agency he made the universe. He was the very effulgence of God's glory; he was the exact expression of God's very essence. He bore everything onwards by the word of his power; and after he had made purification for the sins of men, he took his royal seat at the right hand of the glory in the heights.

The basic idea of this letter is that Jesus Christ alone brings to men the full revelation of God and that he alone enables them to enter into his very presence.


Amos had said: "The Lord God does nothing without revealing his secrets to his servants the prophets" (Amos 3:7). Philo had said: "The prophet is the interpreter of the God who speaks within." He had said: "The prophets are interpreters of the God who uses them as instruments to reveal to men that which he wills."

However, as told - the prophet brought the word of God to the people and angels were the instrument.

[hansgeorg]

Thanks. But how does praying to Mary square with 1 Timothy 2:5 that there is but one mediator between us and God? And there doesn't seem to be any direct support for praying to departed believers.

According to Apostolic tradition, post writing of Acts but pre-death of most Apostles, Our Lady was assumed bodily in Heaven or at least that seems to be a fair suggestion from the fact that She was no longer in the grave when St Thomas opened it to take a last farewell, only her veil and belt were.

That said, there are indications that souls in the "bosom of Abraham" can indeed pray for people.

1) Even if Moses and Jeremiah stood before me (forgot reference) - implying that Moses and Jeremiah sometimes so do stand before God.
2) The soul of the Poor Lazarus didn't say there was a chasm between him and souls on earth, so he couldn't pray for them, he said there was one between himself and the Rich Man (one cannot pray for those in Hell, correctly speaking). When it came to not praying for the Rich man's brothers on Earth, his response was different, he knew they would not believe "even if a man rose from the dead" ... which was clearly verified about the rich Pharisees (yes, they were Pharisees, since it is said "they have Moses and the Prophets and do not believe them" or "if they do not believe Moses and the Prophets" implying they had such), when Lazarus was resurrected. Instead of converting, the Pharisees decided to kill both Our Lord and Lazarus ... so, he was resurrected for the sake of his sister's belief, not for the sake of the Rich Man's brothers.

The problem with squaring with 1 Timothy 2:5 that there is but one mediator between us and God is the same whether I ask prayers from a dead man or someone alive, and Our Lady (who as said isn't dead!) clearly did mediate the first Public Miracle of Our Lord. The one in Cana.

[hansgeorg]

Have any of you considered how Mary might feel about being called the Mother of God? Here is one possibility:

https://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0040/0040_01.asp

The Chick tract very shamefully plagarises the real revelations of Our Lady crying for our sins (NOT including calling Her Mother of God, but including ignoring Her Son, who is God), as in especially La Salette.

It significantly omits the words she spoke when filled by the Holy Spirit in Luke 1 "henceforth all generations shall call me blessed" - meaning all generations of believing Christians, not of unbelieving Jews!

It gives a hint about Her "being sinful" from the sin offering, but omits the fact that St John's Baptism was "unto penance", and that even so Our Lord who is without sin actually requested to be baptised even so.

Matthew 3:[14] But John stayed him, saying: I ought to be baptized by thee, and comest thou to me? [15] And Jesus answering, said to him: Suffer it to be so now. For so it becometh us to fulfill all justice. Then he suffered him.

In other words, from the fact that a turtledove was sacrificed, one cannot conclude Our Lady was sinful in Her humanity.

[hansgeorg]

There were some groups that preferred the term "Christotokos," i.e. "Christ-bearer" as opposed to "Theotokos" (God-bearer), but eventually theotokos was accepted as the formal title because "Christotokos," even though valid, allows for those who do not accept the orthodox understanding of Jesus as fully God and fully man into the discussion.

Theotokos was traditional in the day of Nestorius at least in Constantinople, if not in Antioch (where Nestorius was from), Nestorius wanted to change that and was promptly called "heretic" by a layman in the "pew" (except there are no pews in Byzantine liturgy, you stand all through the Divine Liturgy!). Within a year or two, Nestorius had been condemned.

[hansgeorg]

Praying for you is far different than praying TO you.

"praying to" me is asking me to pray for you.

In the case of some who are already in Heaven, the request is made with some reverence and deference, resembling but not identical to the worship given to God.

The difference is known as difference between "dulia" and "latria".

I may have a man as a "lord" in the slaveholding or feudal sense, but only God as Lord in the sense of full and exclusive owner of my existence.

This exact difference is also there between "praying to" a saint and "praying to" God.

St John on Patmos fell on his face before an angel. He was not raised by the angel because dulia is wrong, but either because in haste he had mistaken sth and was giving latria to the wrong person, or, very much more probably, because angels in Heaven respect and regard as their superiors the priests (first of whom the Twelve Apostles) who are able to call down God on the altar - which even an angel cannot do.

[hansgeorg]

Other than tradition and human reasoning, what else is there?

Human reason is used whenever a truly Christian doctrine or dogma is defended against a misunderstanding, whether in the Bible or not.

Tradition as such is in the Bible. 2 Thessalonians 2:15

I have elsewhere argued that saying the oral tradition of apostles vanished after their death so now we have Bible only by saying this contradicts Matthew 28:20, all days.

[hansgeorg]

I think we need to be aware of the shortcomings, and even dangers associated with human reasoning. Scripture gives us warnings:

Even so, nowhere is human reasoning dispensed with or considered as superfluous in the defense of truth. Our Lord used plenty when arguing against Pharisees!