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Mary Mother of God

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  • Mary Mother of God

    Can someone explain to me this idea of Mary the mother of God? Also the praying to Mary to talk to Jesus on our behalf? Where do these ideas come from and what do others think of the concept? I hope this is the right place to post this.
    Faith is not what we fall back to when reason isn't available. It's the conviction of what we have reason to believe. Greg Koukl

    The loss of objectivity in moral thought does not lead to liberation. It leads to oppression. Secular ideologies preach liberty, but they practice tyranny. — Nancy Pearcey

  • #2
    Originally posted by Papa Zoom View Post
    Can someone explain to me this idea of Mary the mother of God? Also the praying to Mary to talk to Jesus on our behalf? Where do these ideas come from and what do others think of the concept? I hope this is the right place to post this.
    Until somebody comes along with a more serious reply...

    I'm reminded of the first miracle of Jesus as recorded by John, in which Mary, the "Mother of God", told Jesus that they had run out of wine. She then told the servants to listen to Jesus and do whatever He says. So, rather than trying to be the spokesman for Jesus, or intercede on His (or the servants') behalf, she simply told them "Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it".
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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    • #3
      I'm not Catholic or Orthodox so I don't have a dog in the fight about praying to her, but the title of "Mother of God" is an extension of the orthodox understanding of the two natures of Christ. There were some groups that preferred the term "Christotokos," i.e. "Christ-bearer" as opposed to "Theotokos" (God-bearer), but eventually theotokos was accepted as the formal title because "Christotokos," even though valid, allows for those who do not accept the orthodox understanding of Jesus as fully God and fully man into the discussion. According to the two natures of Christ, Jesus would have had to be fully man and fully God from the moment of conception.

      "Fire is catching. If we burn, you burn with us!"
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      Christ our Passover has been sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast.

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      • #4
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        • #5
          Originally posted by Papa Zoom View Post
          Can someone explain to me this idea of Mary the mother of God? Also the praying to Mary to talk to Jesus on our behalf? Where do these ideas come from and what do others think of the concept? I hope this is the right place to post this.
          Hi Papazoom.

          The "Mother of G-d" title is based on the idea the Jesus is a divine person: Jesus is G-d, mary was the mother of Jesus. In the natural order, a mother is older than the child. But note that most Christians do accept the Fatherhood of G-d but do not accept that the Father is older than the Son.

          Praying to mary is related to the doctrine of communion of saints, the idea that all are connected in a special way. It can even be described as an organism, a living thing (can grow and parts can die off). So the dead in Christ are also alive in a very special way (maybe more alive than we are). Other Christians can intercede (that is pray for us or help us in some way). Should that ability, or maybe its an obligation, be removed at the end of our natural life? Jesus may be our eldest brother in the supernatural order; if He had a mother wouldn't that make Mary our mother also?

          Where do they come from? That is a harder question to answer. The Catholics will say (and I am catholic) that it goes back to the bible, and the earliest apostolic times. But also when we look at history, the challenges and controversies of the first several centuries of the church show that those ideas were hammered out with great difficulty. Nestorians, Monophysites, monothelites, arianism (and all the other errors) also make sense biblically and philosophically: but they also have implications or entailments which led to their rejection.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by simplicio View Post
            Hi Papazoom.

            The "Mother of G-d" title is based on the idea the Jesus is a divine person: Jesus is G-d, mary was the mother of Jesus. In the natural order, a mother is older than the child. But note that most Christians do accept the Fatherhood of G-d but do not accept that the Father is older than the Son.

            Praying to mary is related to the doctrine of communion of saints, the idea that all are connected in a special way. It can even be described as an organism, a living thing (can grow and parts can die off). So the dead in Christ are also alive in a very special way (maybe more alive than we are). Other Christians can intercede (that is pray for us or help us in some way). Should that ability, or maybe its an obligation, be removed at the end of our natural life? Jesus may be our eldest brother in the supernatural order; if He had a mother wouldn't that make Mary our mother also?

            Where do they come from? That is a harder question to answer. The Catholics will say (and I am catholic) that it goes back to the bible, and the earliest apostolic times. But also when we look at history, the challenges and controversies of the first several centuries of the church show that those ideas were hammered out with great difficulty. Nestorians, Monophysites, monothelites, arianism (and all the other errors) also make sense biblically and philosophically: but they also have implications or entailments which led to their rejection.
            Thanks. But how does praying to Mary square with 1 Timothy 2:5 that there is but one mediator between us and God? And there doesn't seem to be any direct support for praying to departed believers.
            Faith is not what we fall back to when reason isn't available. It's the conviction of what we have reason to believe. Greg Koukl

            The loss of objectivity in moral thought does not lead to liberation. It leads to oppression. Secular ideologies preach liberty, but they practice tyranny. — Nancy Pearcey

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Papa Zoom View Post
              Thanks. But how does praying to Mary square with 1 Timothy 2:5 that there is but one mediator between us and God? And there doesn't seem to be any direct support for praying to departed believers.
              I would hope that if I were in need that you would pray for me (and even when not in need, I still need prayers). But that does not diminish our need for the Christ. The departed are indeed dead, but what does it mean to be dead, for the Christian? How do we square that with the idea of life after death?

              The role of mediation of Mary is not parallel to, but is subordinate to, the mediation of Christ. Immediately before the passage (2Tim 2:5-6), St Paul urges that supplication, thanksgiving, and intercession be made for all. The ministerial role of mediation doesn't replace Christ's role, but it ought to help his role and emphasize it. ....the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold co-operation which is but a sharing in this one source" (Lumen gentium, 62).

              Maybe it comes down to how we view being human and being Christian. We were made for society, it is not good to be alone. The society which we call the Body of Christ includes those which have passed through the grave.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                I would hope that if I were in need that you would pray for me (and even when not in need, I still need prayers). But that does not diminish our need for the Christ. The departed are indeed dead, but what does it mean to be dead, for the Christian? How do we square that with the idea of life after death?

                The role of mediation of Mary is not parallel to, but is subordinate to, the mediation of Christ. Immediately before the passage (2Tim 2:5-6), St Paul urges that supplication, thanksgiving, and intercession be made for all. The ministerial role of mediation doesn't replace Christ's role, but it ought to help his role and emphasize it. ....the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold co-operation which is but a sharing in this one source" (Lumen gentium, 62).

                Maybe it comes down to how we view being human and being Christian. We were made for society, it is not good to be alone. The society which we call the Body of Christ includes those which have passed through the grave.
                Praying for you is far different than praying TO you. I can't see how praying for the dead does any good (like what exactly would one pray for?). Once we are away from the body we are home with the Lord. The Bible is clear on this. And if I want to talk to God I can do so directly and neither Mary nor "saints" are necessary. Even more than that, it seems clear to me that praying to someone other than through Christ amounts to nothing.
                Faith is not what we fall back to when reason isn't available. It's the conviction of what we have reason to believe. Greg Koukl

                The loss of objectivity in moral thought does not lead to liberation. It leads to oppression. Secular ideologies preach liberty, but they practice tyranny. — Nancy Pearcey

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Papa Zoom View Post
                  Praying for you is far different than praying TO you.
                  Of course.
                  I can't see how praying for the dead does any good (like what exactly would one pray for?).
                  One prays that their sins would be forgiven, and that they would be accounted worthy to spend eternity in paradise.
                  Once we are away from the body we are home with the Lord. The Bible is clear on this.
                  Well, it's a reasonable inference, at any rate. It is in a way why we pray to the saints - because they are present with the Lord, and thus able to intercede on our behalf.
                  And if I want to talk to God I can do so directly and neither Mary nor "saints" are necessary.
                  Strictly speaking, I agree; it's not necessary. On the other hand, it has proven to be effectual over the centuries. Personally, the practice draws me closer to them as fellow members of the ecclesia.
                  Even more than that, it seems clear to me that praying to someone other than through Christ amounts to nothing.
                  Prayer to the saints is prayer through Christ; otherwise, it would indeed amount to nothing.
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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                  • #10
                    Papa Zoom, I'm curious: having heard the explanation, what's your current opinion of the idea of calling Mary the "mother of God"? Would you feel comfortable referring to her as such, knowing that the title was originally intended as an affirmation of Christ's full divinity (and the Catholics and Orthodox have never understood it to mean anything else)? If someone on the street asked you whether you think Mary was mother of God, what would you say?
                    Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                      Papa Zoom, I'm curious: having heard the explanation, what's your current opinion of the idea of calling Mary the "mother of God"? Would you feel comfortable referring to her as such, knowing that the title was originally intended as an affirmation of Christ's full divinity (and the Catholics and Orthodox have never understood it to mean anything else)? If someone on the street asked you whether you think Mary was mother of God, what would you say?
                      Well, I'm finding I don't know as much about Catholocism as I thought I did. I've learned a bit from the various responses. I'd have to say that I'm more comfortable with the idea of the title Mother Of God because of the reasons others have given for its use. i suppose if asked on the street tomorrow I'd say yes I do believe that. The incarnation is a mystery to me in many ways but I do believe that Jesus was fully God and fully man at the moment of conception on. in that sense it seems logical to say Mary was the mother of God.
                      Faith is not what we fall back to when reason isn't available. It's the conviction of what we have reason to believe. Greg Koukl

                      The loss of objectivity in moral thought does not lead to liberation. It leads to oppression. Secular ideologies preach liberty, but they practice tyranny. — Nancy Pearcey

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Papa Zoom View Post
                        Praying for you is far different than praying TO you. I can't see how praying for the dead does any good (like what exactly would one pray for?). Once we are away from the body we are home with the Lord. The Bible is clear on this. And if I want to talk to God I can do so directly and neither Mary nor "saints" are necessary. Even more than that, it seems clear to me that praying to someone other than through Christ amounts to nothing.
                        I do notice that you are wandering away from the original questions in the OP.

                        The Catholic view is that those who have ended their natural life are not necessarily cut off from the living, the Church uses terms like church militant and church triumphant to categorize Christians. Just as if I asked you to pray for me does not imply that the grace received is not from you but from the Lord, and is not an end run around going to the Lord. To go to you, a fellow Christian is a form of praying TO you; those in heaven are also fellow Christians, but have a closeness to G-d which few Christians this side of the grave have.

                        But Mary and the saints are not necessary in the same way that other Christians are not necessary. One can attain heaven all alone, but we were made for society, and we have been given the church and the Body of Christ as a society. This society has a purpose, to help us and strengthen us. Mary and the saints are part of that society. And if Jesus is important, would His mother be inconsequential?

                        The practice of praying for the dead is related to a different (but related) topic concerning how salvation is applied to the human person and the effects of salvation on the human person and nature. The question has to do with purgatory.

                        I will ask this: just what is the bible clear on, and how is it different from my point of view? To be absent from the bible and present with the Lord is an idea which is biblical, but I don't think there is a proof text for it. 2 Cor 5:8 does not exactly say that.

                        You do realize that the arguments you are advancing here are also arguments against the idea of praying for one another?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Papa Zoom, I also do not pray to dead saints, but I understand their practice. "Pray" comes from a Latin word that means to "entreat," or "ask earnestly." It is not to be confused with worship. You may worship while praying, but prayer is not necessarily worship, any more than singing, dancing, or getting dipped in water are worship by definition, (and I'm a great fan of using prayer, singing, and dancing in worship, and would happily call baptism worship.) So anyways, when you ask a living saint, such as an elder at church, or that kind older lady who serves without anyone asking her or thanking her for it, or that young person with a smile on their face, asking them earnestly to intercede for you to God (which is Biblical and is common at every church I've ever heard of) is effectively the same as asking dead saints to pray for you from the Catholic and Orthodox perspectives, except those dead saints are already with the Lord. I disagree with this because I do not see a good Scriptural reason to say that the dead are presently aware of the living, but I have no reason to condemn them for their practice of it.
                          Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                            I do notice that you are wandering away from the original questions in the OP.

                            The Catholic view is that those who have ended their natural life are not necessarily cut off from the living, the Church uses terms like church militant and church triumphant to categorize Christians. Just as if I asked you to pray for me does not imply that the grace received is not from you but from the Lord, and is not an end run around going to the Lord. To go to you, a fellow Christian is a form of praying TO you; those in heaven are also fellow Christians, but have a closeness to G-d which few Christians this side of the grave have.

                            But Mary and the saints are not necessary in the same way that other Christians are not necessary. One can attain heaven all alone, but we were made for society, and we have been given the church and the Body of Christ as a society. This society has a purpose, to help us and strengthen us. Mary and the saints are part of that society. And if Jesus is important, would His mother be inconsequential?

                            The practice of praying for the dead is related to a different (but related) topic concerning how salvation is applied to the human person and the effects of salvation on the human person and nature. The question has to do with purgatory.

                            I will ask this: just what is the bible clear on, and how is it different from my point of view? To be absent from the bible and present with the Lord is an idea which is biblical, but I don't think there is a proof text for it. 2 Cor 5:8 does not exactly say that.

                            You do realize that the arguments you are advancing here are also arguments against the idea of praying for one another?
                            I actually don't know what you are saying here. Sorry but I find what you are saying confusing. And I don't see how my arguments could possibly say anything against the idea of praying for one another. In this life, it seems prudent to pray for other living brothers and sisters in Christ. But it seems unnecessary and even pointless to pray for those that are passed from this life to the next. My father died a number of years ago. He was a believer in Jesus and I can't see what he could possibly need as he's more alive today (in Christ) than he ever was when he walked this earth.
                            Faith is not what we fall back to when reason isn't available. It's the conviction of what we have reason to believe. Greg Koukl

                            The loss of objectivity in moral thought does not lead to liberation. It leads to oppression. Secular ideologies preach liberty, but they practice tyranny. — Nancy Pearcey

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Pentecost View Post
                              Papa Zoom, I also do not pray to dead saints, but I understand their practice. "Pray" comes from a Latin word that means to "entreat," or "ask earnestly." It is not to be confused with worship. You may worship while praying, but prayer is not necessarily worship, any more than singing, dancing, or getting dipped in water are worship by definition, (and I'm a great fan of using prayer, singing, and dancing in worship, and would happily call baptism worship.) So anyways, when you ask a living saint, such as an elder at church, or that kind older lady who serves without anyone asking her or thanking her for it, or that young person with a smile on their face, asking them earnestly to intercede for you to God (which is Biblical and is common at every church I've ever heard of) is effectively the same as asking dead saints to pray for you from the Catholic and Orthodox perspectives, except those dead saints are already with the Lord. I disagree with this because I do not see a good Scriptural reason to say that the dead are presently aware of the living, but I have no reason to condemn them for their practice of it.
                              OK, I see what you are saying. I suppose I see it as you do in some ways. BTW, I don't view prayer as worship. If I gave that impression, I'm sorry for that. I guess the one problem I have with the practice of praying to saints is that Jesus is our intercessor and no one else. We don't need Mary to talk to Jesus for us as we can talk to Jesus on our own. Romans 8:34 34 tWho is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Jesus is our advocate 1 John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

                              And finally there is this: 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

                              There is noting in the Bible that teaches us to pray to saints or to Mary but all verses that deal with a mediator for man point to Christ. If there is one mediator, there is one. That seems to settle it for me.
                              Faith is not what we fall back to when reason isn't available. It's the conviction of what we have reason to believe. Greg Koukl

                              The loss of objectivity in moral thought does not lead to liberation. It leads to oppression. Secular ideologies preach liberty, but they practice tyranny. — Nancy Pearcey

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