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Thread: Mary Mother of God

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    tWebber Papa Zoom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    Papa Zoom, I'm curious: having heard the explanation, what's your current opinion of the idea of calling Mary the "mother of God"? Would you feel comfortable referring to her as such, knowing that the title was originally intended as an affirmation of Christ's full divinity (and the Catholics and Orthodox have never understood it to mean anything else)? If someone on the street asked you whether you think Mary was mother of God, what would you say?
    Well, I'm finding I don't know as much about Catholocism as I thought I did. I've learned a bit from the various responses. I'd have to say that I'm more comfortable with the idea of the title Mother Of God because of the reasons others have given for its use. i suppose if asked on the street tomorrow I'd say yes I do believe that. The incarnation is a mystery to me in many ways but I do believe that Jesus was fully God and fully man at the moment of conception on. in that sense it seems logical to say Mary was the mother of God.
    Faith is not what we fall back to when reason isn't available. It's the conviction of what we have reason to believe. Greg Koukl

    The loss of objectivity in moral thought does not lead to liberation. It leads to oppression. Secular ideologies preach liberty, but they practice tyranny. — Nancy Pearcey

  2. Amen Spartacus, Leonhard, Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
  3. #12
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa Zoom View Post
    Praying for you is far different than praying TO you. I can't see how praying for the dead does any good (like what exactly would one pray for?). Once we are away from the body we are home with the Lord. The Bible is clear on this. And if I want to talk to God I can do so directly and neither Mary nor "saints" are necessary. Even more than that, it seems clear to me that praying to someone other than through Christ amounts to nothing.
    I do notice that you are wandering away from the original questions in the OP.

    The Catholic view is that those who have ended their natural life are not necessarily cut off from the living, the Church uses terms like church militant and church triumphant to categorize Christians. Just as if I asked you to pray for me does not imply that the grace received is not from you but from the Lord, and is not an end run around going to the Lord. To go to you, a fellow Christian is a form of praying TO you; those in heaven are also fellow Christians, but have a closeness to G-d which few Christians this side of the grave have.

    But Mary and the saints are not necessary in the same way that other Christians are not necessary. One can attain heaven all alone, but we were made for society, and we have been given the church and the Body of Christ as a society. This society has a purpose, to help us and strengthen us. Mary and the saints are part of that society. And if Jesus is important, would His mother be inconsequential?

    The practice of praying for the dead is related to a different (but related) topic concerning how salvation is applied to the human person and the effects of salvation on the human person and nature. The question has to do with purgatory.

    I will ask this: just what is the bible clear on, and how is it different from my point of view? To be absent from the bible and present with the Lord is an idea which is biblical, but I don't think there is a proof text for it. 2 Cor 5:8 does not exactly say that.

    You do realize that the arguments you are advancing here are also arguments against the idea of praying for one another?

  4. Amen hansgeorg amen'd this post.
  5. #13
    tWebber Pentecost's Avatar
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    Papa Zoom, I also do not pray to dead saints, but I understand their practice. "Pray" comes from a Latin word that means to "entreat," or "ask earnestly." It is not to be confused with worship. You may worship while praying, but prayer is not necessarily worship, any more than singing, dancing, or getting dipped in water are worship by definition, (and I'm a great fan of using prayer, singing, and dancing in worship, and would happily call baptism worship.) So anyways, when you ask a living saint, such as an elder at church, or that kind older lady who serves without anyone asking her or thanking her for it, or that young person with a smile on their face, asking them earnestly to intercede for you to God (which is Biblical and is common at every church I've ever heard of) is effectively the same as asking dead saints to pray for you from the Catholic and Orthodox perspectives, except those dead saints are already with the Lord. I disagree with this because I do not see a good Scriptural reason to say that the dead are presently aware of the living, but I have no reason to condemn them for their practice of it.
    Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

  6. Amen robrecht, Catholicity, Leonhard, Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
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    tWebber Papa Zoom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    I do notice that you are wandering away from the original questions in the OP.

    The Catholic view is that those who have ended their natural life are not necessarily cut off from the living, the Church uses terms like church militant and church triumphant to categorize Christians. Just as if I asked you to pray for me does not imply that the grace received is not from you but from the Lord, and is not an end run around going to the Lord. To go to you, a fellow Christian is a form of praying TO you; those in heaven are also fellow Christians, but have a closeness to G-d which few Christians this side of the grave have.

    But Mary and the saints are not necessary in the same way that other Christians are not necessary. One can attain heaven all alone, but we were made for society, and we have been given the church and the Body of Christ as a society. This society has a purpose, to help us and strengthen us. Mary and the saints are part of that society. And if Jesus is important, would His mother be inconsequential?

    The practice of praying for the dead is related to a different (but related) topic concerning how salvation is applied to the human person and the effects of salvation on the human person and nature. The question has to do with purgatory.

    I will ask this: just what is the bible clear on, and how is it different from my point of view? To be absent from the bible and present with the Lord is an idea which is biblical, but I don't think there is a proof text for it. 2 Cor 5:8 does not exactly say that.

    You do realize that the arguments you are advancing here are also arguments against the idea of praying for one another?
    I actually don't know what you are saying here. Sorry but I find what you are saying confusing. And I don't see how my arguments could possibly say anything against the idea of praying for one another. In this life, it seems prudent to pray for other living brothers and sisters in Christ. But it seems unnecessary and even pointless to pray for those that are passed from this life to the next. My father died a number of years ago. He was a believer in Jesus and I can't see what he could possibly need as he's more alive today (in Christ) than he ever was when he walked this earth.
    Faith is not what we fall back to when reason isn't available. It's the conviction of what we have reason to believe. Greg Koukl

    The loss of objectivity in moral thought does not lead to liberation. It leads to oppression. Secular ideologies preach liberty, but they practice tyranny. — Nancy Pearcey

  8. #15
    tWebber Papa Zoom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pentecost View Post
    Papa Zoom, I also do not pray to dead saints, but I understand their practice. "Pray" comes from a Latin word that means to "entreat," or "ask earnestly." It is not to be confused with worship. You may worship while praying, but prayer is not necessarily worship, any more than singing, dancing, or getting dipped in water are worship by definition, (and I'm a great fan of using prayer, singing, and dancing in worship, and would happily call baptism worship.) So anyways, when you ask a living saint, such as an elder at church, or that kind older lady who serves without anyone asking her or thanking her for it, or that young person with a smile on their face, asking them earnestly to intercede for you to God (which is Biblical and is common at every church I've ever heard of) is effectively the same as asking dead saints to pray for you from the Catholic and Orthodox perspectives, except those dead saints are already with the Lord. I disagree with this because I do not see a good Scriptural reason to say that the dead are presently aware of the living, but I have no reason to condemn them for their practice of it.
    OK, I see what you are saying. I suppose I see it as you do in some ways. BTW, I don't view prayer as worship. If I gave that impression, I'm sorry for that. I guess the one problem I have with the practice of praying to saints is that Jesus is our intercessor and no one else. We don't need Mary to talk to Jesus for us as we can talk to Jesus on our own. Romans 8:34 34 tWho is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Jesus is our advocate 1 John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

    And finally there is this: 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

    There is noting in the Bible that teaches us to pray to saints or to Mary but all verses that deal with a mediator for man point to Christ. If there is one mediator, there is one. That seems to settle it for me.
    Faith is not what we fall back to when reason isn't available. It's the conviction of what we have reason to believe. Greg Koukl

    The loss of objectivity in moral thought does not lead to liberation. It leads to oppression. Secular ideologies preach liberty, but they practice tyranny. — Nancy Pearcey

  9. #16
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa Zoom View Post
    OK, I see what you are saying. I suppose I see it as you do in some ways. BTW, I don't view prayer as worship. If I gave that impression, I'm sorry for that. I guess the one problem I have with the practice of praying to saints is that Jesus is our intercessor and no one else. We don't need Mary to talk to Jesus for us as we can talk to Jesus on our own. Romans 8:34 34 tWho is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Jesus is our advocate 1 John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

    And finally there is this: 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

    There is noting in the Bible that teaches us to pray to saints or to Mary but all verses that deal with a mediator for man point to Christ. If there is one mediator, there is one. That seems to settle it for me.
    That you think these passages somehow contradict prayer to the saints shows that you haven't been paying attention.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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    tWebber Papa Zoom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    That you think these passages somehow contradict prayer to the saints shows that you haven't been paying attention.
    It's not that I think they contradict it as there's no supporting biblical evidence to pray to saints. Other than tradition and human reasoning, what else is there?
    Faith is not what we fall back to when reason isn't available. It's the conviction of what we have reason to believe. Greg Koukl

    The loss of objectivity in moral thought does not lead to liberation. It leads to oppression. Secular ideologies preach liberty, but they practice tyranny. — Nancy Pearcey

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    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa Zoom View Post
    It's not that I think they contradict it as there's no supporting biblical evidence to pray to saints. Other than tradition and human reasoning, what else is there?
    What's wrong with tradition and human reasoning? Isn't human reasoning created in the image and likeness of God? Isn't the traditional practice of the Body of Christ, led by the Spirit of God also of some value?
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa Zoom View Post
    It's not that I think they contradict it as there's no supporting biblical evidence to pray to saints. Other than tradition and human reasoning, what else is there?
    I don't buy into sola scriptura; scripture was not intended to be comprehensive, but complementary to what had already been preached. It is elementary to note that, e.g., Paul's epistles were written in response to specific problems, and that Jesus' words and actions recorded in the gospels can only have been a small fraction of what He said and did. The earliest extant prayer to Mary dates to the 3rd century, and all the earliest extant liturgies contain prayers to her.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

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  13. Amen robrecht amen'd this post.
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    tWebber Faber's Avatar
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    I think we need to be aware of the shortcomings, and even dangers associated with human reasoning. Scripture gives us warnings:

    "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9, NASB)


    Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. (1 Corinthians 1:20-21, NASB)

    Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. (1 Corinthians 2:12-13, NASB)

    Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, "He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS"; and again, "THE LORD KNOWS THE REASONINGS of the wise, THAT THEY ARE USELESS." (1 Corinthians 3:18-20, NASB, quoting Psalm 94:11)

  15. Amen Papa Zoom, Cerebrum123, Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.

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