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Discussion on matters of general mainstream Christian churches. What are the differences between Catholics and protestants? How has the charismatic movement affected the church? Are Southern baptists different from fundamentalist baptists? It is also for discussions about the nature of the church.

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Papa Zoom View Post
    OK, I see what you are saying. I suppose I see it as you do in some ways. BTW, I don't view prayer as worship. If I gave that impression, I'm sorry for that. I guess the one problem I have with the practice of praying to saints is that Jesus is our intercessor and no one else. We don't need Mary to talk to Jesus for us as we can talk to Jesus on our own. Romans 8:34 34 tWho is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Jesus is our advocate 1 John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

    And finally there is this: 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

    There is noting in the Bible that teaches us to pray to saints or to Mary but all verses that deal with a mediator for man point to Christ. If there is one mediator, there is one. That seems to settle it for me.
    That you think these passages somehow contradict prayer to the saints shows that you haven't been paying attention.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
    sigpic
    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      That you think these passages somehow contradict prayer to the saints shows that you haven't been paying attention.
      It's not that I think they contradict it as there's no supporting biblical evidence to pray to saints. Other than tradition and human reasoning, what else is there?
      Faith is not what we fall back to when reason isn't available. It's the conviction of what we have reason to believe. Greg Koukl

      The loss of objectivity in moral thought does not lead to liberation. It leads to oppression. Secular ideologies preach liberty, but they practice tyranny. — Nancy Pearcey

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Papa Zoom View Post
        It's not that I think they contradict it as there's no supporting biblical evidence to pray to saints. Other than tradition and human reasoning, what else is there?
        What's wrong with tradition and human reasoning? Isn't human reasoning created in the image and likeness of God? Isn't the traditional practice of the Body of Christ, led by the Spirit of God also of some value?
        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Papa Zoom View Post
          It's not that I think they contradict it as there's no supporting biblical evidence to pray to saints. Other than tradition and human reasoning, what else is there?
          I don't buy into sola scriptura; scripture was not intended to be comprehensive, but complementary to what had already been preached. It is elementary to note that, e.g., Paul's epistles were written in response to specific problems, and that Jesus' words and actions recorded in the gospels can only have been a small fraction of what He said and did. The earliest extant prayer to Mary dates to the 3rd century, and all the earliest extant liturgies contain prayers to her.
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

          Comment


          • #20
            I think we need to be aware of the shortcomings, and even dangers associated with human reasoning. Scripture gives us warnings:

            "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9, NASB)


            Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. (1 Corinthians 1:20-21, NASB)

            Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. (1 Corinthians 2:12-13, NASB)

            Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, "He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS"; and again, "THE LORD KNOWS THE REASONINGS of the wise, THAT THEY ARE USELESS." (1 Corinthians 3:18-20, NASB, quoting Psalm 94:11)
            When I Survey....

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by robrecht View Post
              What's wrong with tradition and human reasoning? Isn't human reasoning created in the image and likeness of God? Isn't the traditional practice of the Body of Christ, led by the Spirit of God also of some value?
              That would be assuming what you are tying to prove. There is absolutely zero biblical evidence supporting asking dead saints to intercede for you and talk to Jesus etc on your behalf. And human reasoning isn't without its flaws. Dead saints are still finite. How do we know they can hear anything we say? And what if thousands pray to a saint at the same time (which is likely) - how are we to explain how finite creatures can possibly hear earthly requests from all over the globe simultaneously?
              Faith is not what we fall back to when reason isn't available. It's the conviction of what we have reason to believe. Greg Koukl

              The loss of objectivity in moral thought does not lead to liberation. It leads to oppression. Secular ideologies preach liberty, but they practice tyranny. — Nancy Pearcey

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                I don't buy into sola scriptura; scripture was not intended to be comprehensive, but complementary to what had already been preached. It is elementary to note that, e.g., Paul's epistles were written in response to specific problems, and that Jesus' words and actions recorded in the gospels can only have been a small fraction of what He said and did. The earliest extant prayer to Mary dates to the 3rd century, and all the earliest extant liturgies contain prayers to her.
                And the Church has never gotten any tradition wrong. There no way of knowing that Mary or any saints can even hear our prayers. We know Jesus hears our prayers and intercedes on our behalf. So what the point of talking to others who many not even hear what you're praying (and often people pray silently so that would be saying that Mary and the saints can even hear our thoughts - that seem so far fetched and unsupported by anything we find in the Bible or in the writings of the Apostles)
                Faith is not what we fall back to when reason isn't available. It's the conviction of what we have reason to believe. Greg Koukl

                The loss of objectivity in moral thought does not lead to liberation. It leads to oppression. Secular ideologies preach liberty, but they practice tyranny. — Nancy Pearcey

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Papa Zoom View Post
                  And the Church has never gotten any tradition wrong. There no way of knowing that Mary or any saints can even hear our prayers. We know Jesus hears our prayers and intercedes on our behalf. So what the point of talking to others who many not even hear what you're praying (and often people pray silently so that would be saying that Mary and the saints can even hear our thoughts - that seem so far fetched and unsupported by anything we find in the Bible or in the writings of the Apostles)
                  Actually, this verse has been used by many believers over the years that those in heaven CAN and DO hear our prayers:

                  New International Version
                  Rev 5:8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God's people.

                  Clement of Alexandria
                  "In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

                  Origen
                  "But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).


                  Cyprian of Carthage
                  "Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy" (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).


                  http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-i...-of-the-saints
                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  - Stephen R. Donaldson

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                    Actually, this verse has been used by many believers over the years that those in heaven CAN and DO hear our prayers:

                    New International Version
                    Rev 5:8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God's people.

                    Clement of Alexandria
                    "In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

                    Origen
                    "But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).


                    Cyprian of Carthage
                    "Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy" (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).


                    http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-i...-of-the-saints
                    Clement, Origen, and Cyprian seem to be saying that those that have gone before us, continue to remember us in their heavenly prayers (how they know this actually happens I don't know) but there doesn't seem to be a support here for US to pray to a saint directly. Again, what's the point? We can go to "the Throne of Grace" directly and need no saint for assistance. And since there's no way of actually knowing that the dead can actually hear our prayers (or read our minds) it seems foolish to pursue the practice.
                    Faith is not what we fall back to when reason isn't available. It's the conviction of what we have reason to believe. Greg Koukl

                    The loss of objectivity in moral thought does not lead to liberation. It leads to oppression. Secular ideologies preach liberty, but they practice tyranny. — Nancy Pearcey

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Papa Zoom View Post
                      That would be assuming what you are tying to prove. There is absolutely zero biblical evidence supporting asking dead saints to intercede for you and talk to Jesus etc on your behalf. And human reasoning isn't without its flaws. Dead saints are still finite. How do we know they can hear anything we say? And what if thousands pray to a saint at the same time (which is likely) - how are we to explain how finite creatures can possibly hear earthly requests from all over the globe simultaneously?
                      Huh? What is it you assume I am trying to prove? I am just asking you what is wrong with tradition and human reasoning? Do you imagine that I have said that human saints, alive in Christ, are infinite? I just don't see anything wrong with the tradition of the church, the body of Christ, led by the Spirit of God, praying together for each other, for the least of our brethren. Of course human reasoning is flawed, yours as well as mine. I don't know if anyone can hear anything I pray. But if I desire to prayer with all the angels and saints, it is only because we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses whose faith in Christ inspires our faith. We are all one Body in Christ, are we not?
                      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Papa Zoom View Post
                        Clement, Origen, and Cyprian seem to be saying that those that have gone before us, continue to remember us in their heavenly prayers (how they know this actually happens I don't know) but there doesn't seem to be a support here for US to pray to a saint directly. Again, what's the point? We can go to "the Throne of Grace" directly and need no saint for assistance. And since there's no way of actually knowing that the dead can actually hear our prayers (or read our minds) it seems foolish to pursue the practice.
                        ...except that prayers to saints have been found to be efficacious over the centuries, which would be a good indication that such prayers are being heard and answered. I personally know two people who have been healed through the intercession of Mary (and many, many more second hand).
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                        sigpic
                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          ...except that prayers to saints have been found to be efficacious over the centuries, which would be a good indication that such prayers are being heard and answered. I personally know two people who have been healed through the intercession of Mary (and many, many more second hand).
                          I have never felt inclined to pray to Mary, but I certainly don't discourages others if they feel so led.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Cow Poop View Post
                            I have never felt inclined to pray to Mary, but I certainly don't discourages others if they feel so led.
                            Hey, when did you change your name to Cow Poop?
                            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                              Hey, when did you change your name to Cow Poop?
                              I didn't.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Papa Zoom View Post
                                I actually don't know what you are saying here. Sorry but I find what you are saying confusing. And I don't see how my arguments could possibly say anything against the idea of praying for one another. In this life, it seems prudent to pray for other living brothers and sisters in Christ. But it seems unnecessary and even pointless to pray for those that are passed from this life to the next. My father died a number of years ago. He was a believer in Jesus and I can't see what he could possibly need as he's more alive today (in Christ) than he ever was when he walked this earth.
                                I don't think you realize it, but you are conflating many different ideas in this thread, which are distinct from my point of view. So praying "for" the soul is a different concept than praying "to" saints. But the saints on earth (such as Christians posting on Tweb) do pray for and to one another, even if they do not use that terminology. And I admit that some of the confusion stems from my usage, the language I use does not convey the distinctions.

                                I will ask this question point blank: Would you pray for me if I needed or requested it?

                                And would my request to you be supplanting the role of the Savior, avoiding Jesus to go to another human creature?

                                The idea of praying to the saints is the same as going to those saints in the Church Militant, those still persevering in this life. The prayer of one human for another has value precisely because we are part of the Body of Christ, which is a living thing, a spiritual organism with life (Holy SPirit) coursing through it veins. So the practice of praying for one another is accepted within the Protestant world, one saint praying for another saint, one member praying for another member of the Body. So we have one person who is alive in Christ praying to another member ( the request to pray for me) and one member praying for another (by praying for me). Those in heaven are still members of the one Body, they are alive in Christ, they are connected to those here because they are grafted into the same Vine as those here on earth.

                                In one sense, yes it is pointless, those in heaven have reached the goal, have successfully run the race. So to pray that those in heaven receive the assistance and perseverance is not really needed; to pray for the prayers of those in heaven who see the face of G-d is something I do desire. Any friend of G-d's is a friend of mine; which is why I ask Maximillian Kolbe to pray for me (he is an example of heroic virtue) and I also ask Mary to pray for me (she is the proto Christian and had a very special and unique relationship with Jesus).

                                I am trying to emphasize those points which differ from the commonly accepted Protestant ideas, Body of Christ as a collection of believers which includes those in heaven. I believe that Christians do have a duty to one another, and that duty extends to all those grafted into the Vine which is the Body of Christ, including those who have achieved beatific vision.

                                How we understand our faith is heavily influenced by how we are taught, we emphasize different aspects, drop other aspects. So the Catholic Church emphasizes the Body of Christ as a Body in which those who have passed on as still being in full communion with us and the Church.

                                2Cor 5:8 is commonly accepted to mean that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (I know those were not your exact words). Does the passage actually say that?

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