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Thread: Mary Mother of God

  1. #21
    tWebber Papa Zoom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robrecht View Post
    What's wrong with tradition and human reasoning? Isn't human reasoning created in the image and likeness of God? Isn't the traditional practice of the Body of Christ, led by the Spirit of God also of some value?
    That would be assuming what you are tying to prove. There is absolutely zero biblical evidence supporting asking dead saints to intercede for you and talk to Jesus etc on your behalf. And human reasoning isn't without its flaws. Dead saints are still finite. How do we know they can hear anything we say? And what if thousands pray to a saint at the same time (which is likely) - how are we to explain how finite creatures can possibly hear earthly requests from all over the globe simultaneously?
    Faith is not what we fall back to when reason isn't available. It's the conviction of what we have reason to believe. Greg Koukl

    The loss of objectivity in moral thought does not lead to liberation. It leads to oppression. Secular ideologies preach liberty, but they practice tyranny. — Nancy Pearcey

  2. #22
    tWebber Papa Zoom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    I don't buy into sola scriptura; scripture was not intended to be comprehensive, but complementary to what had already been preached. It is elementary to note that, e.g., Paul's epistles were written in response to specific problems, and that Jesus' words and actions recorded in the gospels can only have been a small fraction of what He said and did. The earliest extant prayer to Mary dates to the 3rd century, and all the earliest extant liturgies contain prayers to her.
    And the Church has never gotten any tradition wrong. There no way of knowing that Mary or any saints can even hear our prayers. We know Jesus hears our prayers and intercedes on our behalf. So what the point of talking to others who many not even hear what you're praying (and often people pray silently so that would be saying that Mary and the saints can even hear our thoughts - that seem so far fetched and unsupported by anything we find in the Bible or in the writings of the Apostles)
    Faith is not what we fall back to when reason isn't available. It's the conviction of what we have reason to believe. Greg Koukl

    The loss of objectivity in moral thought does not lead to liberation. It leads to oppression. Secular ideologies preach liberty, but they practice tyranny. — Nancy Pearcey

  3. #23
    Thanks Old Man... Bill the Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa Zoom View Post
    And the Church has never gotten any tradition wrong. There no way of knowing that Mary or any saints can even hear our prayers. We know Jesus hears our prayers and intercedes on our behalf. So what the point of talking to others who many not even hear what you're praying (and often people pray silently so that would be saying that Mary and the saints can even hear our thoughts - that seem so far fetched and unsupported by anything we find in the Bible or in the writings of the Apostles)
    Actually, this verse has been used by many believers over the years that those in heaven CAN and DO hear our prayers:

    New International Version
    Rev 5:8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God's people.

    Clement of Alexandria
    "In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

    Origen
    "But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).


    Cyprian of Carthage
    "Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy" (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).


    http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-i...-of-the-saints


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  4. Amen Rushing Jaws, hansgeorg amen'd this post.
  5. #24
    tWebber Papa Zoom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    Actually, this verse has been used by many believers over the years that those in heaven CAN and DO hear our prayers:

    New International Version
    Rev 5:8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God's people.

    Clement of Alexandria
    "In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

    Origen
    "But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).


    Cyprian of Carthage
    "Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy" (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).


    http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-i...-of-the-saints
    Clement, Origen, and Cyprian seem to be saying that those that have gone before us, continue to remember us in their heavenly prayers (how they know this actually happens I don't know) but there doesn't seem to be a support here for US to pray to a saint directly. Again, what's the point? We can go to "the Throne of Grace" directly and need no saint for assistance. And since there's no way of actually knowing that the dead can actually hear our prayers (or read our minds) it seems foolish to pursue the practice.
    Faith is not what we fall back to when reason isn't available. It's the conviction of what we have reason to believe. Greg Koukl

    The loss of objectivity in moral thought does not lead to liberation. It leads to oppression. Secular ideologies preach liberty, but they practice tyranny. — Nancy Pearcey

  6. #25
    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa Zoom View Post
    That would be assuming what you are tying to prove. There is absolutely zero biblical evidence supporting asking dead saints to intercede for you and talk to Jesus etc on your behalf. And human reasoning isn't without its flaws. Dead saints are still finite. How do we know they can hear anything we say? And what if thousands pray to a saint at the same time (which is likely) - how are we to explain how finite creatures can possibly hear earthly requests from all over the globe simultaneously?
    Huh? What is it you assume I am trying to prove? I am just asking you what is wrong with tradition and human reasoning? Do you imagine that I have said that human saints, alive in Christ, are infinite? I just don't see anything wrong with the tradition of the church, the body of Christ, led by the Spirit of God, praying together for each other, for the least of our brethren. Of course human reasoning is flawed, yours as well as mine. I don't know if anyone can hear anything I pray. But if I desire to prayer with all the angels and saints, it is only because we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses whose faith in Christ inspires our faith. We are all one Body in Christ, are we not?
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

  7. Amen Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
  8. #26
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa Zoom View Post
    Clement, Origen, and Cyprian seem to be saying that those that have gone before us, continue to remember us in their heavenly prayers (how they know this actually happens I don't know) but there doesn't seem to be a support here for US to pray to a saint directly. Again, what's the point? We can go to "the Throne of Grace" directly and need no saint for assistance. And since there's no way of actually knowing that the dead can actually hear our prayers (or read our minds) it seems foolish to pursue the practice.
    ...except that prayers to saints have been found to be efficacious over the centuries, which would be a good indication that such prayers are being heard and answered. I personally know two people who have been healed through the intercession of Mary (and many, many more second hand).
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  9. Amen Rushing Jaws, hansgeorg amen'd this post.
  10. #27
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    ...except that prayers to saints have been found to be efficacious over the centuries, which would be a good indication that such prayers are being heard and answered. I personally know two people who have been healed through the intercession of Mary (and many, many more second hand).
    I have never felt inclined to pray to Mary, but I certainly don't discourages others if they feel so led.

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

  11. Amen Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
  12. #28
    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poop View Post
    I have never felt inclined to pray to Mary, but I certainly don't discourages others if they feel so led.
    Hey, when did you change your name to Cow Poop?
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

  13. #29
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robrecht View Post
    Hey, when did you change your name to Cow Poop?
    I didn't.

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

  14. #30
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa Zoom View Post
    I actually don't know what you are saying here. Sorry but I find what you are saying confusing. And I don't see how my arguments could possibly say anything against the idea of praying for one another. In this life, it seems prudent to pray for other living brothers and sisters in Christ. But it seems unnecessary and even pointless to pray for those that are passed from this life to the next. My father died a number of years ago. He was a believer in Jesus and I can't see what he could possibly need as he's more alive today (in Christ) than he ever was when he walked this earth.
    I don't think you realize it, but you are conflating many different ideas in this thread, which are distinct from my point of view. So praying "for" the soul is a different concept than praying "to" saints. But the saints on earth (such as Christians posting on Tweb) do pray for and to one another, even if they do not use that terminology. And I admit that some of the confusion stems from my usage, the language I use does not convey the distinctions.

    I will ask this question point blank: Would you pray for me if I needed or requested it?

    And would my request to you be supplanting the role of the Savior, avoiding Jesus to go to another human creature?

    The idea of praying to the saints is the same as going to those saints in the Church Militant, those still persevering in this life. The prayer of one human for another has value precisely because we are part of the Body of Christ, which is a living thing, a spiritual organism with life (Holy SPirit) coursing through it veins. So the practice of praying for one another is accepted within the Protestant world, one saint praying for another saint, one member praying for another member of the Body. So we have one person who is alive in Christ praying to another member ( the request to pray for me) and one member praying for another (by praying for me). Those in heaven are still members of the one Body, they are alive in Christ, they are connected to those here because they are grafted into the same Vine as those here on earth.

    In one sense, yes it is pointless, those in heaven have reached the goal, have successfully run the race. So to pray that those in heaven receive the assistance and perseverance is not really needed; to pray for the prayers of those in heaven who see the face of G-d is something I do desire. Any friend of G-d's is a friend of mine; which is why I ask Maximillian Kolbe to pray for me (he is an example of heroic virtue) and I also ask Mary to pray for me (she is the proto Christian and had a very special and unique relationship with Jesus).

    I am trying to emphasize those points which differ from the commonly accepted Protestant ideas, Body of Christ as a collection of believers which includes those in heaven. I believe that Christians do have a duty to one another, and that duty extends to all those grafted into the Vine which is the Body of Christ, including those who have achieved beatific vision.

    How we understand our faith is heavily influenced by how we are taught, we emphasize different aspects, drop other aspects. So the Catholic Church emphasizes the Body of Christ as a Body in which those who have passed on as still being in full communion with us and the Church.

    2Cor 5:8 is commonly accepted to mean that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (I know those were not your exact words). Does the passage actually say that?

  15. Amen Rushing Jaws, hansgeorg amen'd this post.

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