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Discussion on matters of general mainstream Christian churches. What are the differences between Catholics and protestants? How has the charismatic movement affected the church? Are Southern baptists different from fundamentalist baptists? It is also for discussions about the nature of the church.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
    Huh? What is it you assume I am trying to prove? I am just asking you what is wrong with tradition and human reasoning? Do you imagine that I have said that human saints, alive in Christ, are infinite? I just don't see anything wrong with the tradition of the church, the body of Christ, led by the Spirit of God, praying together for each other, for the least of our brethren. Of course human reasoning is flawed, yours as well as mine. I don't know if anyone can hear anything I pray. But if I desire to prayer with all the angels and saints, it is only because we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses whose faith in Christ inspires our faith. We are all one Body in Christ, are we not?
    Here is the problem. "I just don't see anything wrong with the tradition of the church, the body of Christ, led by the Spirit of God, praying together for each other, for the least of our brethren."

    I don't disagree with this. Protestant churches do this all the time as do Orthodox and Catholic as well. But you are suggesting something altogether different. It is not the same to say to me, "will you pray for me?" and the Mary, "Mother of God, pray for me." I am here to hear your request. I can deliver. You have no biblical support for praying to Mary or dead saints. The bible doesn't call us to pray with the angels and saints in the way you (and others) suggest. Yes we are one body but it doesn't follow from that that you can pray to those who have died and ask them to talk to God for you. Praying to the dead isn't something gotten from reading the Bible. If it was so powerful a thing, it would have been covered. Other than tradition, there is zero support for such a thing.

    BTW, do you think Mary is omnipresent? How is it Mary can handle millions of prayers to her simultaneously? Millions at once? Every day. And we're to believe she passes those requests to Jesus? I cannot wrap my head around such and idea.
    Faith is not what we fall back to when reason isn't available. It's the conviction of what we have reason to believe. Greg Koukl

    The loss of objectivity in moral thought does not lead to liberation. It leads to oppression. Secular ideologies preach liberty, but they practice tyranny. — Nancy Pearcey

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      ...except that prayers to saints have been found to be efficacious over the centuries, which would be a good indication that such prayers are being heard and answered. I personally know two people who have been healed through the intercession of Mary (and many, many more second hand).
      And Muslims will claim Allah healed them and Mormons claim that prayers to Joseph yielded similar results. Why even bother with anyone other than Jesus Himself? Makes no sense to me.
      Faith is not what we fall back to when reason isn't available. It's the conviction of what we have reason to believe. Greg Koukl

      The loss of objectivity in moral thought does not lead to liberation. It leads to oppression. Secular ideologies preach liberty, but they practice tyranny. — Nancy Pearcey

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by simplicio View Post
        I don't think you realize it, but you are conflating many different ideas in this thread, which are distinct from my point of view. So praying "for" the soul is a different concept than praying "to" saints. But the saints on earth (such as Christians posting on Tweb) do pray for and to one another, even if they do not use that terminology. And I admit that some of the confusion stems from my usage, the language I use does not convey the distinctions.
        Where in the Bible does it tell us to pray for one's soul?
        There is also Zero biblical support for praying to saints. Asking a saint on earth to pray for you is biblical. There IS positive biblical evidence for this practice. So I have no issue with this.

        I will ask this question point blank: Would you pray for me if I needed or requested it?
        Of course I would. I pray for many people. And when I pray, I pray to God through Christ.

        And would my request to you be supplanting the role of the Savior, avoiding Jesus to go to another human creature?
        Of course not. Your request would be perfectly in line with biblical teaching. And I would pray directly to the Lord on your behalf. But You would not be praying to me to pray to God for you. You'd call me on the phone, text me, speak to me face to face; but what's being suggested here is that we pray to dead saints. And for what? To talk to God for us? We can talk to God directly. Philippians 4:6 6Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. There are plenty of verses that support praying for each other: http://www.openbible.info/topics/praying_for_each_other

        Note that not one supports praying to a dead saint or Mary, mother of Jesus.

        The idea of praying to the saints is the same as going to those saints in the Church Militant, those still persevering in this life. The prayer of one human for another has value precisely because we are part of the Body of Christ, which is a living thing, a spiritual organism with life (Holy SPirit) coursing through it veins. So the practice of praying for one another is accepted within the Protestant world, one saint praying for another saint, one member praying for another member of the Body. So we have one person who is alive in Christ praying to another member ( the request to pray for me) and one member praying for another (by praying for me). Those in heaven are still members of the one Body, they are alive in Christ, they are connected to those here because they are grafted into the same Vine as those here on earth.
        We should pray for one another. But we should not pray to anyone other than to God directly. Praying for each other is biblical. Praying TO each other (after death) is not.

        In one sense, yes it is pointless, those in heaven have reached the goal, have successfully run the race. So to pray that those in heaven receive the assistance and perseverance is not really needed;
        Not only not needed but it does nothing. We are called to pray to God. Zero biblical evidence for praying to dead saints.

        to pray for the prayers of those in heaven who see the face of G-d is something I do desire. Any friend of G-d's is a friend of mine; which is why I ask Maximillian Kolbe to pray for me (he is an example of heroic virtue) and I also ask Mary to pray for me (she is the proto Christian and had a very special and unique relationship with Jesus).
        This is all well and good but it doesn't follow that we should pray to the dead.

        I am trying to emphasize those points which differ from the commonly accepted Protestant ideas, Body of Christ as a collection of believers which includes those in heaven. I believe that Christians do have a duty to one another, and that duty extends to all those grafted into the Vine which is the Body of Christ, including those who have achieved beatific vision.
        I totally agree. But this doesn't include praying to the dead (yet I know they are more fully alive in Christ but as their earthly life goes, they are dead).

        How we understand our faith is heavily influenced by how we are taught, we emphasize different aspects, drop other aspects. So the Catholic Church emphasizes the Body of Christ as a Body in which those who have passed on as still being in full communion with us and the Church.

        Yes. But there are plenty of errors perpetuated within every church tradition. Yet there is but one truth.


        2Cor 5:8 is commonly accepted to mean that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (I know those were not your exact words). Does the passage actually say that?[/QUOTE]

        I'm not sure of the question but to be absent from the body is to have one's earthly body dead and there the soul is separated from the body. When that happens, for the Christian, they are in the presence of the Lord at that very moment.
        Faith is not what we fall back to when reason isn't available. It's the conviction of what we have reason to believe. Greg Koukl

        The loss of objectivity in moral thought does not lead to liberation. It leads to oppression. Secular ideologies preach liberty, but they practice tyranny. — Nancy Pearcey

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Papa Zoom View Post
          Here is the problem. "I just don't see anything wrong with the tradition of the church, the body of Christ, led by the Spirit of God, praying together for each other, for the least of our brethren."

          I don't disagree with this. Protestant churches do this all the time as do Orthodox and Catholic as well. But you are suggesting something altogether different. It is not the same to say to me, "will you pray for me?" and the Mary, "Mother of God, pray for me." I am here to hear your request. I can deliver. You have no biblical support for praying to Mary or dead saints. The bible doesn't call us to pray with the angels and saints in the way you (and others) suggest. Yes we are one body but it doesn't follow from that that you can pray to those who have died and ask them to talk to God for you. Praying to the dead isn't something gotten from reading the Bible. If it was so powerful a thing, it would have been covered. Other than tradition, there is zero support for such a thing.

          BTW, do you think Mary is omnipresent? How is it Mary can handle millions of prayers to her simultaneously? Millions at once? Every day. And we're to believe she passes those requests to Jesus? I cannot wrap my head around such and idea.
          Part of my point was that I am not trying to prove my beliefs or even over-define them. Thus, I am not too concerned that something might not be explicitly present in Protestant bibles. Whether you accept a Catholic or Protestant or another canon, you are, in fact, relying on tradition to tell you what is in the bible or not in the bible. Only modern bibles come with a table of contents. Every book in the New Testament was written by members of church communities and handed down to us as part of church tradition. At some point you have to trust in the larger community or at least a part of it. More importantly, and as I've said other times in these discussions, I do not view 'prayer to the saints' as prayer to the saints, but rather prayer with the saints. Insofar as all Christians everywhere, alive or dead in Christ, are part of the Body of Christ. We are one. We pray and worship God together. The oldest liturgy in the church continued in a Jewish tradition of imagining our worship of God being part of the angelic worship of God. We are united to all the angels and saints through our union with Christ and friendship with God. We don't have to worry about whether or not Mary is omnipresent or able to hear millions of prayers all at once. If she is with God, she is with us, when we are with God.
          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Papa Zoom View Post
            And Muslims will claim Allah healed them and Mormons claim that prayers to Joseph yielded similar results. Why even bother with anyone other than Jesus Himself? Makes no sense to me.
            Because of love for the least of our brethern. As God loved us, we love one another.
            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

            Comment


            • #36
              I feel like I am surrounded by Catholic believers (not that that is a bad thing). I'm not trying to step on any toes here. I can't wrap my head around this teaching. And since this discussion began I've done some reading and some of the things the Catholic Church has said over the years are totally confusing.

              I know that Frank Beckwith has returned to the Catholic Church after attend a protestant church. I have a lot of respect for Beckwith. And there are plenty of believers whom I have a lot of respect for such as G K Chesterton. I believe those who hold to faith in Christ are all part of the body of Christ. (there may be qualifiers later). I do appreciate the arguments and challenges people here are offering and I am listening. It's just not computing and perhaps never will. I've been a protestant all my life.

              BTW, in a previous post I said that I didn't equate prayer with worship. But I believe that I'm wrong on that point. Prayer is very much a part of worship for a variety of reasons which I won't go into now.

              Thanks for all the replies.
              Faith is not what we fall back to when reason isn't available. It's the conviction of what we have reason to believe. Greg Koukl

              The loss of objectivity in moral thought does not lead to liberation. It leads to oppression. Secular ideologies preach liberty, but they practice tyranny. — Nancy Pearcey

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                Part of my point was that I am not trying to prove my beliefs or even over-define them. Thus, I am not too concerned that something might not be explicitly present in Protestant bibles. Whether you accept a Catholic or Protestant or another canon, you are, in fact, relying on tradition to tell you what is in the bible or not in the bible. Only modern bibles come with a table of contents. Every book in the New Testament was written by members of church communities and handed down to us as part of church tradition. At some point you have to trust in the larger community or at least a part of it. More importantly, and as I've said other times in these discussions, I do not view 'prayer to the saints' as prayer to the saints, but rather prayer with the saints. Insofar as all Christians everywhere, alive or dead in Christ, are part of the Body of Christ. We are one. We pray and worship God together. The oldest liturgy in the church continued in a Jewish tradition of imagining our worship of God being part of the angelic worship of God. We are united to all the angels and saints through our union with Christ and friendship with God. We don't have to worry about whether or not Mary is omnipresent or able to hear millions of prayers all at once. If she is with God, she is with us, when we are with God.
                I think there can be value in tradition but if tradition doesn't match up biblically, perhaps tradition should be questioned.

                I don't know how one can pray with the Saints in Heaven without praying to them. If you mean agreeing with them, that's different than asking them to intercede on your behalf before God.
                Faith is not what we fall back to when reason isn't available. It's the conviction of what we have reason to believe. Greg Koukl

                The loss of objectivity in moral thought does not lead to liberation. It leads to oppression. Secular ideologies preach liberty, but they practice tyranny. — Nancy Pearcey

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                  Because of love for the least of our brethern. As God loved us, we love one another.
                  Yes that's true but why bother praying to anyone else and asking them to intercede on your behalf when you can go direct. It's like calling on Jesus' hotline to heaven and asking for Saint Paul and then asking him to talk to Jesus for you. If you have Jesus on the line, and you want to communicate with Him, you have a direct line. Use it exclusively.
                  Faith is not what we fall back to when reason isn't available. It's the conviction of what we have reason to believe. Greg Koukl

                  The loss of objectivity in moral thought does not lead to liberation. It leads to oppression. Secular ideologies preach liberty, but they practice tyranny. — Nancy Pearcey

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Papa Zoom View Post
                    I think there can be value in tradition but if tradition doesn't match up biblically, perhaps tradition should be questioned.

                    I don't know how one can pray with the Saints in Heaven without praying to them. If you mean agreeing with them, that's different than asking them to intercede on your behalf before God.
                    Some of the oldest traditional interpretations of the Bible's first verse are contradictory. Whose interpretation do you accept as definitive or authoritative? Intercessory prayer is sometimes considered one of the lower or more shallow forms of prayer, 'though I don't mean this in a esoteric or elitist sense, while the deeper sense of unitive prayer is a kind of loving contemplation that doesn't worry so much about rational questions of praying to or agreeing with; it is simply being with God and each other in trust and openness.
                    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Papa Zoom View Post
                      Yes that's true but why bother praying to anyone else and asking them to intercede on your behalf when you can go direct. It's like calling on Jesus' hotline to heaven and asking for Saint Paul and then asking him to talk to Jesus for you. If you have Jesus on the line, and you want to communicate with Him, you have a direct line. Use it exclusively.
                      God speaks to us through others. Loving others is part of loving God. Sometimes we need an example of how others have loved God with their whole life for us to figure out where the part of us is that can figure out how we can love God in our own unique way. Didn't Jesus say something about his being there where two or more are gathered in his name? Prayer is a communal thing even when you're alone. In prayer, we're never alone, even if we feel that way.
                      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Papa Zoom View Post
                        And Muslims will claim Allah healed them
                        This has nothing to with prayer to the saints.
                        and Mormons claim that prayers to Joseph yielded similar results.
                        They do? Where?

                        Probably my favorite second-hand account of healing through the intercession of Mary is in connection with a myrrh-streaming icon of Mary (which is itself miraculous; having seen it closely several times, I can attest that it's no parlor trick). A Muslim man came to a session the priest-guardian of the icon set up to answer questions about it, and vociferously denounced the icon as blasphemous to Allah. After the session, the attendees had the opportunity to venerate the icon. When the Muslim man approached the icon with them, people were very cautious because they weren't sure what he would do. He stood in front of the icon for a long time, then suddenly broke down in tears. When he finally turned from the icon to face the priest, all he said was, "Jesus is Lord." He's subsequently been baptized. At the same time, a dangerous heart condition (he had been on six medications to deal with it) was completely healed (the doctor, after checking and re-checking, said he had the heart of a normal 20-year old). I'll leave it to you to decide which is the greater miracle.

                        Why even bother with anyone other than Jesus Himself? Makes no sense to me.
                        Why even bother with asking others to pray for you? For that matter, why even bother praying to Jesus? It's not like He needs us to tell Him what we need or want.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Papa Zoom View Post
                          Where in the Bible does it tell us to pray for one's soul?
                          There is also Zero biblical support for praying to saints. Asking a saint on earth to pray for you is biblical. There IS positive biblical evidence for this practice. So I have no issue with this.

                          Of course I would. I pray for many people. And when I pray, I pray to God through Christ.

                          Of course not. Your request would be perfectly in line with biblical teaching. And I would pray directly to the Lord on your behalf. But You would not be praying to me to pray to God for you. You'd call me on the phone, text me, speak to me face to face; but what's being suggested here is that we pray to dead saints. And for what? To talk to God for us? We can talk to God directly. Philippians 4:6 6Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. There are plenty of verses that support praying for each other: http://www.openbible.info/topics/praying_for_each_other

                          Note that not one supports praying to a dead saint or Mary, mother of Jesus.

                          We should pray for one another. But we should not pray to anyone other than to God directly. Praying for each other is biblical. Praying TO each other (after death) is not.

                          Not only not needed but it does nothing. We are called to pray to God. Zero biblical evidence for praying to dead saints.

                          This is all well and good but it doesn't follow that we should pray to the dead.

                          I totally agree. But this doesn't include praying to the dead (yet I know they are more fully alive in Christ but as their earthly life goes, they are dead).

                          Yes. But there are plenty of errors perpetuated within every church tradition. Yet there is but one truth.

                          2Cor 5:8 is commonly accepted to mean that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (I know those were not your exact words). Does the passage actually say that?
                          I'm not sure of the question but to be absent from the body is to have one's earthly body dead and there the soul is separated from the body. When that happens, for the Christian, they are in the presence of the Lord at that very moment.[/QUOTE]

                          First off, I would like to thank you, this topic is a controversial one, which highlights the difference in Catholic and Protestant thought, and you have maintained a Christian demeanor in your discussion, and have remained respectful throughout. I skimmed over my earlier answers, and I admit that I was expecting the worst when I entered this discussion, I was wrong.

                          I view the Body of Christ as a living thing, a spiritual organism, which is living and growing, and has divine grace keeping it alive, just as it is a grace that the Father holds us all in biological existence (G-d holds us all in existence, even the universe through an act of His will). And the Body of Christ contains all Christians. So I can and do go to other Christians on this side of the grave to pray for me and to render assistance, that has effectiveness because they are part of the one body. But I see those beyond the grave and in heaven as full members of the one body; and the duty to care for one another even extends to them.

                          We, as Christians are called to care for one another, which includes both body and soul. So when a natural disaster strikes, church groups are at the forefront in providing aid. The Christians on this side of the grave are in a unique position to offer assistance to other Christians (and of course non Christians). We could go directly to G-d and ask for assistance, but it is a common practice to have an extra collection or call for volunteers. That is the church in action on this earth, and providing aid for the physical needs.

                          But we also pray for the the soul when we pray that someone be conformed to Christ, the conformation occurs in the soul, not the physical body. Spiritual needs are for the soul, and are every bit as important (maybe more so) as physical needs. Those on this side of the grave should pray for and care for the soul of others in need (and for strengthening the brethren also). Those in heaven are also part of the church.

                          I see going to those in heaven in the same way as I see going to those on earth. I may go to those on earth and that is not considered avoiding G-d. I still need to pray to G-d. I also go to those in heaven to offer assistance. Those in heaven can offer assistance, their assistance may take a different form than those on earth. That also is the church in action. So care of the physical body and physical needs is a responsibility, care for the soul and spiritual needs is also a responsibility of Christians, since they are members of the one Body of Christ. I do go to G-d, I also go to the members of the Body of Christ. It is common, even among Protestants, to go to the pastor (a man) to enlist members of the Body for either physical needs or spiritual needs without viewing it as an end run around G-d. The major difference is that I will also enlist the helo of those in heaven.

                          Is what we know about the bible really supported by the bible? 2 Cor 5:8 is often used to support the idea of absent from the body, present with the Lord. But does that passage really say that? Do a google search on that phrase, you will be surprised. Sunday worship is another example. I have heard the arguments for and against Sunday worship and I am not convinced that it can be supported biblicaly. Yet another example is the canon of scripture, which books should be included in the bible. Not sure that any one canon can be supported from the bible, each groups points to the influence of the Holy Spirit. I believe as you that Sunday is what the Lord wants us to come together to worship, that when we die the soul immediately is present to the Lord. I am sure we differ on the number of books, I am Catholic and say that you bible is 7 books short, you say I have 7 too many. But each of these three position are difficult to support using the bible, other arguments are brought in.

                          Do a google search on 2Cor5:8. Which is why I say that how we view the faith is heavily influenced by how we are taught. That passage says something different than what is commonly ascribed to it. If we can be wrong about a passage which we have read a thousand times, is it possible that we might be wrong about other things?

                          This discussion on the communion of saints and praying to the dead depends on how we view the church, the body of Christ, human anthropology (what the nature of man is), and even what the effects of salvation are on the human person. How we view each of these heavily influences this topic. Maybe that is a barrier to communication between catholics and protestants. I will start from the theology and move to the bible passage, generally the protestant will start with the bible passage and move to theology. Yet both see both their theology as fully incorporating the bible, and the bible as consistent with their theology. But all points of the theology have to be consistent and coherent (logically connected); it is theology which is supposed to correspond to the whole of reality.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                            Papa Zoom, I'm curious: having heard the explanation, what's your current opinion of the idea of calling Mary the "mother of God"? Would you feel comfortable referring to her as such, knowing that the title was originally intended as an affirmation of Christ's full divinity (and the Catholics and Orthodox have never understood it to mean anything else)? If someone on the street asked you whether you think Mary was mother of God, what would you say?
                            One can appreciate the original context and still feel that the term is likely enough to mislead not to want to use it today. I also think "mother of God" has a somewhat different feel to it than theotokos. I'd be less concerned about "God-bearer."

                            You can argue that originally theotokos was about Christology. I think today "mother of God" is more about Mary.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by hedrick View Post
                              One can appreciate the original context and still feel that the term is likely enough to mislead not to want to use it today. I also think "mother of God" has a somewhat different feel to it than theotokos. I'd be less concerned about "God-bearer."

                              You can argue that originally theotokos was about Christology. I think today "mother of God" is more about Mary.
                              Would you feel the same way if someone felt that the doctrine of Jesus being a divine person, albeit with a human and divine nature, but nevertheless one divine person, somehow today over emphasizes the divine nature of Christ at the expense of his full humanity? Is everything open to reinterpretation if you feel ancient dogmas are being understood differently in some modern contexts?
                              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                                Would you feel the same way if someone felt that the doctrine of Jesus being a divine person, albeit with a human and divine nature, but nevertheless one divine person, somehow today over emphasizes the divine nature of Christ at the expense of his full humanity? Is everything open to reinterpretation if you feel ancient dogmas are being understood differently in some modern contexts?
                                Two natures in one person is a more basic doctrine than Mary as Mother of God.

                                But even then, Chalcedon was an attempt to express the Incarnation in the conceptual framework of one particular culture. It's not Scripture. The criticisms of Chalcedon that I've heard are about the adequacy of the concepts nature and person, not that they overemphasize Christ as divine. Even a relatively conservative NT scholar as N T Wright has issues with Chalcedon.
                                Last edited by hedrick; 10-17-2015, 04:10 PM.

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