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Discussing Marcus Borg.

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  • Discussing Marcus Borg.

    I attended a lecture he gave at the Methodist Church in Sacramento CA. I overheard him talking to what I took as his "insider" how he was conning the hopeful believers there (if there were any, I guess--it's a rather liberal church, the Crossan stuff too (books on display), maybe Bishop Spong, I can't remember,
    I've always been convinced of the factuality and divinity of Jesus Christ.
    Near the Peoples' Republic of Davis, south of the State of Jefferson (Suspended between Left and Right)

  • #2
    Originally posted by Adam View Post
    I attended a lecture he gave at the Methodist Church in Sacramento CA. I overheard him talking to what I took as his "insider" how he was conning the hopeful believers there (if there were any, I guess--it's a rather liberal church, the Crossan stuff too (books on display), maybe Bishop Spong, I can't remember,
    I've always been convinced of the factuality and divinity of Jesus Christ.
    Can you please elaborate? I'm not understanding..

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    • #3
      I apologize for gossip, and I may have misunderstood even though I heard Borg speaking to what I took was his supporter.
      I'm a cynical person, caused by being by nature very idealistic and generally being disappointed by people, though this fortunately has not made me lose by Charismatic Christian devotion to proving Jesus is truly Christ.
      I was disappointed, I guess, that it seemed that Borg was cynical, too, but without the redeeming faith in Christianity.
      I hope I misinterpreted some "inside" conversation.
      Near the Peoples' Republic of Davis, south of the State of Jefferson (Suspended between Left and Right)

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Adam View Post
        I apologize for gossip, and I may have misunderstood even though I heard Borg speaking to what I took was his supporter.
        I'm a cynical person, caused by being by nature very idealistic and generally being disappointed by people, though this fortunately has not made me lose by Charismatic Christian devotion to proving Jesus is truly Christ.
        I was disappointed, I guess, that it seemed that Borg was cynical, too, but without the redeeming faith in Christianity.
        I hope I misinterpreted some "inside" conversation.
        I see, thanks. Well, I think Marcus Borg was a typical liberal scholar and didn't hide that fact. He had his strong points and some of what he said was valid. Although, unfortunately as with many (most?) liberals, I don't think he accepted fundamental doctrines, and therefore, had distorted/heretical views of salvation, the gospel, etc.
        Last edited by Scrawly; 10-20-2015, 08:59 PM.

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        • #5
          I think Jesus was a fairly liberal and provocative theologian of his day.
          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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          • #6
            Originally posted by robrecht View Post
            I think Jesus was a fairly liberal and provocative theologian of his day.
            Be that as it may, but he wasn't merely a liberal theologian - he was also the great "I AM" in the flesh, right? The historical Jesus was God incarnate, yes?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
              Be that as it may, but he wasn't merely a liberal theologian - he was also the great "I AM" in the flesh, right? The historical Jesus was God incarnate, yes?
              Sure. So it seems you agree that God himself was a liberal and provocative theologian of his day.
              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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              • #8
                Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                Sure. So it seems you agree that God himself was a liberal and provocative theologian of his day.
                It depends how you define "liberal". For example, I don't think he would be too happy with a liberal theologian, such as Marcus Borg, who essentially denied the historical Jesus was deity.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                  It depends how you define "liberal". For example, I don't think he would be too happy with a liberal theologian, such as Marcus Borg, who essentially denied the historical Jesus was deity.
                  Personally, I don't think God can be defined, but however you define 'liberal', you would have to include redemption from all forms of sin and injustice, ie, liberation, the freedom to love God and all others as God first loved us.
                  βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                  ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                  אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                    Personally, I don't think God can be defined
                    I think we have much to say based upon the revelation God has given us of Himself in the Scriptures. Of course we don't have exhaustive knowledge, but that doesn't entail God is a total mystery.

                    however you define 'liberal', you would have to include redemption from all forms of sin and injustice, ie, liberation, the freedom to love God and all others as God first loved us.
                    I'm not quite sure what this statement means. It seems muddled to me.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                      I think we have much to say based upon the revelation God has given us of Himself in the Scriptures. Of course we don't have exhaustive knowledge, but that doesn't entail God is a total mystery.
                      Do you think God can be defined? If so, what is your definition of God?

                      Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                      I'm not quite sure what this statement means. It seems muddled to me.
                      Maybe we can clear it up if you can give us your definition of God and we can can try to build on that.
                      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                        I see, thanks. Well, I think Marcus Borg was a typical liberal scholar and didn't hide that fact. He had his strong points and some of what he said was valid. Although, unfortunately as with many (most?) liberals, I don't think he accepted fundamental doctrines, and therefore, had distorted/heretical views of salvation, the gospel, etc.
                        This is why I prefer the term "mainline" for churches such as PCUSA, ELCA, etc, rather than "liberal." Borg was kind of a henotheist. He thought most religions were acceptable, but served Jesus himself as a personal choice. Surveys say that almost all members and clergy in the PCUSA see Christ as the only way to God. Similarly, he rejected a literal Resurrection, which is not typical of those churches.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                          Do you think God can be defined? If so, what is your definition of God?
                          I think God can be defined by appealing to Jesus, who is the image of the invisible God (Col. 1:15) - for in Him all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form (Col. 2:9). I would then proceed to shore up the biblical data to highlight the fact that God is a Trinity consisting of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; and once again, do I exhaustively understand the Trinity? No of course not, but that doesn't entail the Trinity a total mystery.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                            I think God can be defined by appealing to Jesus, who is the image of the invisible God (Col. 1:15) - for in Him all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form (Col. 2:9). I would then proceed to shore up the biblical data to highlight the fact that God is a Trinity consisting of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; and once again, do I exhaustively understand the Trinity? No of course not, but that doesn't entail the Trinity a total mystery.
                            OK, good. So in what sense do you think that the image of the invisible God, in whom all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form, was a fairly liberal and provocative theologian of his day?
                            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                              OK, good. So in what sense do you think that the image of the invisible God, in whom all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form, was a fairly liberal and provocative theologian of his day?
                              I never said he was. I said he may have been, depending on how one defines "liberal". You provided a definition of "liberal" that I found muddled. You need to tell me how you think Jesus was a "liberal theologian" and then provide biblical data to support your case.

                              Comment

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