Was the Apostle Paul a Jew or a Gentile?

[rross7]

Yes, he saw some kind glowing supernatural being who gave him certain instructions and made him go blind.

Hmmmmmmm, sounds kinda similar to guy named Joseph Smith doesn't it?

C'mon, this story is obivously made up by himself in order legitamaize his "ministry" and set his primacy over Ya'akov HaTzaddik (James the Just) and the other Talmidim of Y'hoshua ben Yosef who actually knew the man when he was alive.

C'mon, this is simply conjecture without looking at any of the facts. How could someone start to correlate Joseph Smith's 'visions' to Paul. Paul had many witnesses and they had to lead him around as he was blind for several days. Further his life did a 180 degree turn going from imprisoning Christians to being one. I'm pretty sure the church of the time would have looked into Paul's claims of conversion - including Ananias - the one God spoke to and instructed to heal Paul.

The Jews wouldn't listen to his mystery-cult syncretistic nonsense so he had to go the pagan gentiles.

It would seem that Paul is in good company with the Jews not listening to him - they didn't listen to Jesus either nor a great deal of the prophets.

Luke 13:34

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! ...

[stuart shepherd]

God said.....
Genesis 2:18 (King James Version)
18And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

But Paul sees fit to disagree with God....
1 Corinthians 7:27 (King James Version)
Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.

1 Corinthians 7:7-8 (King James Version)
7For I would that all men were even as I myself. [Single]But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.

8I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I.

Does Paul make the rules and contradict God?

Stuart Shepherd

[rross7]

Take a look at the following argument by Paul.
Galatians 3:16 (King James Version)
16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Paul was pretty slick with his persuasive arguments.
With logic like this he could have been a timeshare salesman if he were alive today.

Stuart Shepherd

And because Paul uses persuasive arguments they, or he is somehow wrong????

The passage Paul quotes (Genesis 22:18) seems to naturally tie into Christ's redemtive sacrifice (coming directly after Abrahams willingness to give up Issac).

In constrast:

Because he was a liar and a false prophet who thought being "jewish" would give him some kind of legitamacy.

And, if Paul was indeed a gentile he most certainly was a liar as he claimed the contrary on several occassions. Would you accept the words of liar as theologically sound?

Possibly the lack of actual evidence in posts like this better qualifies the poster for such timeshare sales positions

[lilpixieofterror]

If Yeshua added or subtracted from the MC Law, He was a sinner and not a pure sinless atonement for our sins.

Why was he a sinner? Give us a defination of sin please.

So you are not saved.

Don't worry, I know exactly where this is going, it was an error on my part for not being more clear, but you are more than welcome to back up your claims.

Crystal

[ApologiaPhoenix]

God said.....
Genesis 2:18 (King James Version)
18And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

But Paul sees fit to disagree with God....
1 Corinthians 7:27 (King James Version)
Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.

1 Corinthians 7:7-8 (King James Version)
7For I would that all men were even as I myself. [Single]But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.

8I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I.

Does Paul make the rules and contradict God?

Stuart Shepherd

Could you tell me when 1 Cor. was written and what was going on at the time?

[stuart shepherd]

Could you tell me when 1 Cor. was written and what was going on at the time?

I see that you switched your picture. It's better and less confusing for those of us who didn't know about the penguin..

Stuart Shepherd

[ApologiaPhoenix]

I see that you switched your picture. It's better and less confusing for those of us who didn't know about the penguin..

Stuart Shepherd

And could you tell me when 1 Cor. was written and what was going on?

[Impresario]

In the Pauline epistles, the Apostle Paul brags about his Jewish background.
Philippians 3:5 (King James Version)
5Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

When Paul wrote his letter to the Romans, he apparently was writing to a congregation that was predominately of a Gentile background.
Romans 1:13 (King James Version)
13Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.

Now comes the interesting part.........
Read the following verses and tell me what you think.
Romans 9:23-25 (King James Version)
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

Paul is addressing the Gentile Romans and telling them that they are called as well as the Jews. But when he says "Even us" is Paul putting himself into the Gentile group and in effect saying he is a gentile? Did Paul misspeak and "tip his hand?"

Is it possible that Paul was really a Gentile masquerading as a Jew?
I am not sure...tell me how you understand his words.

Stuart Shepherd

Saul or Paul was more Jewish than Jesus.

[RCNicholas]

[QUOTE=LivniHaNetzari]Because he was a liar and a false prophet who thought being "jewish" would give him some kind of legitamacy.

Hmmm...well considering that he traveled all over the place and people knew him extremely well, especially since prior to his conversion to Christianity he had Christians rounded up, imprisoned, and killed, I'm confused as to how you see the logistics of his lie working out...How could he lie about his race to people who had known him most if not all of his life??

Paul: Yeah, I'm Jewish.
Peter: Um...no, Paul, you're not.
Paul: Yeah I am!
Peter: Paul, don't make me call your mother.
Paul: Oh, all right...I'm not.


Anybody else find the claim that he lied about his race less than logical??

And, if Paul was indeed a gentile he most certainly was a liar as he claimed the contrary on several occassions. Would you accept the words of liar as theologically sound

What actual historical evidence do you have to suggest that Paul was not Jewish?

[ruthrush]

From Crystal

Quote: Originally posted by ruthrush
If Yeshua added or subtracted from the MC Law, He was a sinner and not a pure sinless atonement for our sins.

Why was he a sinner? Give us a defination of sin please.

1 John 3:4 says, "Indeed, everyone doing sin, the Law -lessness does, for sin is the Law -lessness".
Deut.4:2b says, "Do not add to what I am saying and do not subtract from it". Deut.13:1b says, "Do not add to it or subtract from it".
Ruth

previous Quote: from Ruth

So you are not saved.

Don't worry, I know exactly where this is going, it was an error on my part for not being more clear, but you are more than welcome to back up your claims.

Crystal

[lilpixieofterror]

1 John 3:4 says, "Indeed, everyone doing sin, the Law -lessness does, for sin is the Law -lessness".
Deut.4:2b says, "Do not add to what I am saying and do not subtract from it". Deut.13:1b says, "Do not add to it or subtract from it".
Ruth

May I ask you Ruth what the entire point of the law is? As for your comment where I am not saved... I love to hear you argue this. Should be intresting.

Crystal

[Tladatsi]

Actually, Paul never tells any such story himself. The story of the blinding light on the road to Damascas is told about Paul by the author of Acts (Luke presumably). In none of Paul's letters does he tell such a story. Paul is many things but shy and unassuming are not among them. If such an amazing thing had happened, he would have said so. Paul merely says that he went to Damascas and was converted there. He tells of no amazing revelation along the road. Based on his own letters, he did suffer blindness, but of the ordinary human variety. When and where he claims to have seen the resurrrected Jesus is not recorded.

Did Paul "really" see the risen Jesus? I know he says he did, as did many others, including James the Just and Peter Simon did. Did Paul have disagreements with "The Three" in Jerusalem? Clearly, even just based on Paul's own letters, which no doubt show those disagreements in the best possible light. Further, the Letter of James is a direct rebutal to Paul. That Paul's theology (or Christiology) is quite different from other early followers of Jesus, including those who not only knew Jesus but did not presecute His followers (including the murder of Stephen), that you or I might even disagree with Paul, does not tell me what Paul did or not see.

Paul said was Jewish and there is no evidence to the contrary. Paul says he say the risen Jesus and there is no evidence to the contrary. That does not necessarily mean I agree with Paul's theology, it just means I am sticking to the documentary evidence.

Yes, he saw some kind glowing supernatural being who gave him certain instructions and made him go blind.

Hmmmmmmm, sounds kinda similar to guy named Joseph Smith doesn't it?

C'mon, this story is obivously made up by himself in order legitamaize his "ministry" and set his primacy over Ya'akov HaTzaddik (James the Just) and the other Talmidim of Y'hoshua ben Yosef who actually knew the man when he was alive.

The Jews wouldn't listen to his mystery-cult syncretistic nonsense so he had to go the pagan gentiles.

[ruthrush]

May I ask you Ruth what the entire point of the law is? As for your comment where I am not saved... I love to hear you argue this. Should be intresting.

Crystal

I'm so sorry. I assumed you were a christian. Please accept my apology.
The "you" of my statement, "or you are not saved", was geared to christians who say that Yeshua did not obey the Law. Mostly because they have been taught that the Law was "old" and inferior and Yeshua came to toss it aside, so they think that He wouldn't have kept something that He was going to destroy. Which is not true. Yeshua said not one jot or tittle of the Law, the Mosaic Covenant Law of God, would pass away until heaven and earth passed away and all came to be.
In fact the Mosaic Covenant Law and the Mosiac Covenant, itself, is still in place. Jer.31 says that the New Covenant will be made with the House of Judah and the House of Israel, whose fathers came out of Egypt. That will happen when He returns and Israel and Judah are regathered. It says that when the NC is in place, all will know the Lord and that has not happened yet. In fact, Yeshua gave the Great Commission to go and evangelize to the world. That Great Commisssion is still in effect and the world does not all know the Lord, so the NC has not begun and the MC is still in effect.
But even when it does come into being, YHVH in Jer.31 says, "My Torah" (MC Law) will be written on their hearts and minds at the coming of the NC. Isaiah and Micah both say that gentiles will come to Jerusalem, when the Lord returns and receive the Torah Law.
The point of the MCLaw is a guide from God, for those who will obey it, so that they can live long, happy, prosperous, healthy lives here on earth. God chose a small group of people to give this Law to but expected that the rest of the world would see it's advantages and come to know the God who gave it. It was the job of Israel to preserve these Words of God and share them with the whole world.

As for why you should be saved, I'll share that in another post unless the one who started this thread, objects.
Ruth

[ruthrush]

[QUOTE from Crystal

Quote: Originally posted by ruthrush

1 John 3:4 says, "Indeed, everyone doing sin, the Law -lessness does, for sin is the Law -lessness".
Deut.4:2b says, "Do not add to what I am saying and do not subtract from it". Deut.13:1b says, "Do not add to it or subtract from it".
Ruth


May I ask you Ruth what the entire point of the law is? As for your comment where I am not saved... I love to hear you argue this. Should be intresting.

Crystal [/QUOTE]

I guess I really didn't understand your post.
You are a christian, it seems, from your profile.
I guess you do not want to here my argument why to be a believer, but why Yeshua needed to be a sinless, pure sacrifice to be the atonement for the sins of the world.

Yeshua was a Jew and born under the MC. If He did not obey the MC Law, He would be a sinner just like all other people. All sinners are under the Law of sin and death. Like Adam and Eve, we deserve the same death sentence they received. They were thrown out of Paradise so they could no longer eat of the Tree of Life and live forever. An angel guards the entrence to Paradise so no one can enter unless he is as sinless anf pure as Adam before he sinned. Yeshua was as sinless and pure as Adam before the Fall. He did not deserve to die. Yet, He was crucified. In fact, He came to be crucified. His job was to die in place of me for my sin so that I could go past the angel with the flaming sword and enter Paradise and live forever.
In fact, the One who determined that all who sin are under a penalty of death, said that His death would atone for all who believe that "God so loved the world" [God is Love], that He gave His only begotten Son [to die as the Lamb of God] that whosoever believeth on Him, [all who believe that He came to die as our atonement because He loves us so] would not perish [we would not have to die ] but have everlasting life. On the day of our death [just as it happened with Yeshua] we would go past the angel with the flaming sword, into Paradise and eat of the fruit of the Tree of Everlasting Life.
Ruth

[Williamrist]

I guess I really didn't understand your post.
You are a christian, it seems, from your profile.
I guess you do not want to here my argument why to be a believer, but why Yeshua needed to be a sinless, pure sacrifice to be the atonement for the sins of the world.

Yeshua was a Jew and born under the MC. If He did not obey the MC Law, He would be a sinner just like all other people. All sinners are under the Law of sin and death. Like Adam and Eve, we deserve the same death sentence they received. They were thrown out of Paradise so they could no longer eat of the Tree of Life and live forever. An angel guards the entrence to Paradise so no one can enter unless he is as sinless anf pure as Adam before he sinned. Yeshua was as sinless and pure as Adam before the Fall. He did not deserve to die. Yet, He was crucified. In fact, He came to be crucified. His job was to die in place of me for my sin so that I could go past the angel with the flaming sword and enter Paradise and live forever.
In fact, the One who determined that all who sin are under a penalty of death, said that His death would atone for all who believe that "God so loved the world" [God is Love], that He gave His only begotten Son [to die as the Lamb of God] that whosoever believeth on Him, [all who believe that He came to die as our atonement because He loves us so] would not perish [we would not have to die ] but have everlasting life. On the day of our death [just as it happened with Yeshua] we would go past the angel with the flaming sword, into Paradise and eat of the fruit of the Tree of Everlasting Life.
Ruth

I don't think it matters if Paul, was a Jew or Gentile.
Read, Romans 3:9-24 KJV or NIV