Was the Apostle Paul a Jew or a Gentile?

[rross7]

Actually, Paul never tells any such story himself. The story of the blinding light on the road to Damascas is told about Paul by the author of Acts (Luke presumably). In none of Paul's letters does he tell such a story. Paul is many things but shy and unassuming are not among them. If such an amazing thing had happened, he would have said so. Paul merely says that he went to Damascas and was converted there. He tells of no amazing revelation along the road. Based on his own letters, he did suffer blindness, but of the ordinary human variety. When and where he claims to have seen the resurrrected Jesus is not recorded.

Wrong on several accounts. How about account to Agrippa (Acts 26:12-19) and his account to the Jewish mob (Acts 22:1-10) both these are recorded by Luke - but record Paul’s actual conversion testimonies has a defence. So Paul does tell the story himself.
Paul also alludes to in it in 1 Corinthians 15:8 - he met with Christ after the ascension.

Further, the Letter of James is a direct rebutal to Paul. That Paul's theology (or Christiology) is quite different from other early followers of Jesus, including those who not only knew Jesus but did not presecute His followers (including the murder of Stephen), that you or I might even disagree with Paul, does not tell me what Paul did or not see.

Really? James demands works to accompany faith (James 2:17), visiting orphans and widows (James 1:27), not showing favouritism (James 2:1-13), being humble (James 4). Does not Paul teach similar things? works - (Titus 2:14), looking looking after the poor (Gal 2:10), no favouritism (Gal 2:6), being humble (Titus 3:2)

[Tladatsi]

Wrong on several accounts. How about account to Agrippa (Acts 26:12-19) and his account to the Jewish mob (Acts 22:1-10) both these are recorded by Luke - but record Paul’s actual conversion testimonies has a defence. So Paul does tell the story himself.
Paul also alludes to in it in 1 Corinthians 15:8 - he met with Christ after the ascension.

1 Cor 15:8 merely states that Paul saw the risen Jesus, it does not say where or when or how, only that it was long after Peter, James, and others did. Paul did not write the Acts. Paul, in his letters, makes no mention of any blinding light along the road to Damacas, only that he coverted to Christianity there.

Really? James demands works to accompany faith (James 2:17), visiting orphans and widows (James 1:27), not showing favouritism (James 2:1-13), being humble (James 4). Does not Paul teach similar things? works - (Titus 2:14), looking looking after the poor (Gal 2:10), no favouritism (Gal 2:6), being humble (Titus 3:2)

Paul says that "good works" bring us into God's favor, only faith.

Romans 1:17

This Good News tells us how God makes us right in his sight. This is accomplished from start to finish by faith. As the Scriptures say, "It is through faith that a righteous person has life.

James says faith without good works is hollow and meaningless.

James 2:14

Dear brothers and sisters, what's the use of saying you have faith if you don't prove it by your actions? That kind of faith can't save anyone.

They are total opposites on what is Paul's main point.

[lilpixieofterror]

I'm so sorry. I assumed you were a christian. Please accept my apology.

I am one.

The "you" of my statement, "or you are not saved", was geared to christians who say that Yeshua did not obey the Law. Mostly because they have been taught that the Law was "old" and inferior and Yeshua came to toss it aside, so they think that He wouldn't have kept something that He was going to destroy. Which is not true. Yeshua said not one jot or tittle of the Law, the Mosaic Covenant Law of God, would pass away until heaven and earth passed away and all came to be.

Exactly and that error was corrected prior by somebody else on this thread...

As for why you should be saved, I'll share that in another post unless the one who started this thread, objects.

I am Ruth... don't need to explan that to me, but thanks though.

Crystal

[DesertBerean]

Because he was a liar and a false prophet who thought being "jewish" would give him some kind of legitamacy.

And, if Paul was indeed a gentile he most certainly was a liar as he claimed the contrary on several occassions. Would you accept the words of liar as theologically sound?

Bwaahaahaa...(cough) So I guess all the opposition against Paul came from people just as confused about Paul's Jewishness???? It would have been a simple matter to disprove his claims. The fact that they resisted Paul's teachings, not his background, says they knew he was a Jew.

[stuart shepherd]

I'm so sorry. I assumed you were a christian. Please accept my apology.
The "you" of my statement, "or you are not saved", was geared to christians who say that Yeshua did not obey the Law. Mostly because they have been taught that the Law was "old" and inferior and Yeshua came to toss it aside, so they think that He wouldn't have kept something that He was going to destroy. Which is not true. Yeshua said not one jot or tittle of the Law, the Mosaic Covenant Law of God, would pass away until heaven and earth passed away and all came to be.
In fact the Mosaic Covenant Law and the Mosiac Covenant, itself, is still in place. Jer.31 says that the New Covenant will be made with the House of Judah and the House of Israel, whose fathers came out of Egypt. That will happen when He returns and Israel and Judah are regathered. It says that when the NC is in place, all will know the Lord and that has not happened yet. In fact, Yeshua gave the Great Commission to go and evangelize to the world. That Great Commisssion is still in effect and the world does not all know the Lord, so the NC has not begun and the MC is still in effect.
But even when it does come into being, YHVH in Jer.31 says, "My Torah" (MC Law) will be written on their hearts and minds at the coming of the NC. Isaiah and Micah both say that gentiles will come to Jerusalem, when the Lord returns and receive the Torah Law.
The point of the MCLaw is a guide from God, for those who will obey it, so that they can live long, happy, prosperous, healthy lives here on earth. God chose a small group of people to give this Law to but expected that the rest of the world would see it's advantages and come to know the God who gave it. It was the job of Israel to preserve these Words of God and share them with the whole world.

As for why you should be saved, I'll share that in another post unless the one who started this thread, objects.
Ruth

Dear Ruth,
Jesus also said......
Matthew 23:2-3 (King James Version)
2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

If one reads only the Gospels you see a Christianity far different from the anti-Torah assertions of Paul. I wonder who are Paul's witnesses that Jesus gave Paul all his anti-Torah assertions? Are we supposed to believe the words of a murderer without witnesses? Paul was guilty of Felony Murder in the death of Stephen. [Acts 7] He was an accomplice in a Felony, the murder of Stephen, guilty of Felony Murder.

Stuart Shepherd

[ruthrush]

[QUOTE]

Dear Ruth,
Jesus also said......
Matthew 23:2-3 (King James Version)
2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Most English translations say what you have written. But, Matthew 23:2, "On the seat of Moses sat the scribes and pharisees" must be seen in context. In Matthew 23:34 Yeshua says of them, "serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape Hell?" 28 says, "Even so you outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness." 15, "Woe to you....you travel....to win one proselyte and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves."
Yeshua would never tell people to follow someone who would lead them to hell!

There is a Hebrew Bible according to Shem Tov that differs from the Greek translations the English translators use.
In that Hebrew Matthew it translates one word in Matt. 23:3 differently which makes it agree with the rest of the chapter. It says, "all, therefore, whatever HE [not they] tells you to observe, observe and do, but according to their works, do not do, for they say and do not do." Yeshua actually said obey Moses not those who claim they have the authority of Moses by sitting in his seat.
Ruth

If one reads only the Gospels you see a Christianity far different from the anti-Torah assertions of Paul.

You are reading the English translations. The English translations come from an anti-Law, antisemitic perspective.
Paul is hard to understand, as Peter said, and the English translations make it even harder.

Look at John 1:17 first. It is a commonly mistranslated and misquoted verse.
The NKJ Bible translates it as "For the Law was given through Moses but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ".
It does NOT say that!
In the Greek, the word "but" is NOT there! It was added by the English translators.
The word "for" should be translated as "because" it's real meaning not "for".
John is not saying that there was no grace of God before Yeshua came!
John is not saying that there was no truth in the writings of Moses! God forbid!

The verse really says, "Because the Law through Moses was given, grace and truth through (or by) Jesus Christ (Yeshua HaMaschiach) came to be".

Then when you read Paul, note in the Greek what he is actually saying. The most common error is that the word "the" is translated discriminantly.
"The Law", when written in those times, meant the MC Law. When Paul meant the MC Law, he used the definite article. Where a definite article is missing, no one should assume that he is speaking of the MC Law. But the English translators commonly insert the word "the" into Paul's letters.
Check and you will find that Paul is not anti-Torah.
Ruth

I wonder who are Paul's witnesses that Jesus gave Paul all his anti-Torah assertions? Are we supposed to believe the words of a murderer without witnesses? Paul was guilty of Felony Murder in the death of Stephen. [Acts 7] He was an accomplice in a Felony, the murder of Stephen, guilty of Felony Murder.
Stuart Shepherd

There are instruction for court judgements in the Word of God. Outside a legitimate court that uses the Scripture for it's decisions, we cannot make a judgement. Judgement of Paul is in God's hands. God forgave David's murder and adultery to use him as a writer of God's Word.
We have the Tanach as the basis for determining the truth of other Biblical writings. That is what the Bereans used to confirm Paul's teachings to them.
Ruth

[ruthrush]

I don't think it matters if Paul, was a Jew or Gentile.
Read, Romans 3:9-24 KJV or NIV

For salvation, it does not matter if we are Jew or gentile or male or female because God's salvation is for the world. The Promised Seed was given to Adam and Eve who were not Jewish.
But for our God given tasks we are called to accomplish, it does matter.
Jews were given the Word of God and were to be a light to the rest of the world. The gentiles were to make the unsaved Jews jealous to bring them back to their God assigned tasks. And only when the Jews say, "Baruch haba b'Shem Adonai" from Jreusalem, will God return and bring in the New Millenium world of peace.
Ruth

[Williamrist]

For salvation, it does not matter if we are Jew or gentile or male or female because God's salvation is for the world. The Promised Seed was given to Adam and Eve who were not Jewish.
But for our God given tasks we are called to accomplish, it does matter.
Jews were given the Word of God and were to be a light to the rest of the world. The gentiles were to make the unsaved Jews jealous to bring them back to their God assigned tasks. And only when the Jews say, "Baruch haba b'Shem Adonai" from Jreusalem, will God return and bring in the New Millenium world of peace.
Ruth

Because, no one fulfilled the law of Moses, Jew and Gentile are equal, Romans
3:9, salvation is a free gift from God, it cannot be earned. The Jews were
the light of the world and had failed the law of Moses. Salvation is now from the Jewish Messiah, Jesus Christ, and Him only. Guaranteed, not all Jews and Gentiles will go to heaven.

[stuart shepherd]

[QUOTE=ruthrush]

Most English translations say what you have written. But, Matthew 23:2, "On the seat of Moses sat the scribes and pharisees" must be seen in context. In Matthew 23:34 Yeshua says of them, "serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape Hell?" 28 says, "Even so you outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness." 15, "Woe to you....you travel....to win one proselyte and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves."
Yeshua would never tell people to follow someone who would lead them to hell!

There is a Hebrew Bible according to Shem Tov that differs from the Greek translations the English translators use.
In that Hebrew Matthew it translates one word in Matt. 23:3 differently which makes it agree with the rest of the chapter. It says, "all, therefore, whatever HE [not they] tells you to observe, observe and do, but according to their works, do not do, for they say and do not do." Yeshua actually said obey Moses not those who claim they have the authority of Moses by sitting in his seat.
Ruth




You are reading the English translations. The English translations come from an anti-Law, antisemitic perspective.
Paul is hard to understand, as Peter said, and the English translations make it even harder.

Look at John 1:17 first. It is a commonly mistranslated and misquoted verse.
The NKJ Bible translates it as "For the Law was given through Moses but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ".
It does NOT say that!
In the Greek, the word "but" is NOT there! It was added by the English translators.
The word "for" should be translated as "because" it's real meaning not "for".
John is not saying that there was no grace of God before Yeshua came!
John is not saying that there was no truth in the writings of Moses! God forbid!

The verse really says, "Because the Law through Moses was given, grace and truth through (or by) Jesus Christ (Yeshua HaMaschiach) came to be".

Then when you read Paul, note in the Greek what he is actually saying. The most common error is that the word "the" is translated discriminantly.
"The Law", when written in those times, meant the MC Law. When Paul meant the MC Law, he used the definite article. Where a definite article is missing, no one should assume that he is speaking of the MC Law. But the English translators commonly insert the word "the" into Paul's letters.
Check and you will find that Paul is not anti-Torah.
Ruth




There are instruction for court judgements in the Word of God. Outside a legitimate court that uses the Scripture for it's decisions, we cannot make a judgement. Judgement of Paul is in God's hands. God forgave David's murder and adultery to use him as a writer of God's Word.
We have the Tanach as the basis for determining the truth of other Biblical writings. That is what the Bereans used to confirm Paul's teachings to them.
Ruth

Ruth wrote...

Most English translations say what you have written. But, Matthew 23:2, "On the seat of Moses sat the scribes and pharisees" must be seen in context. In Matthew 23:34 Yeshua says of them, "serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape Hell?" 28 says, "Even so you outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness." 15, "Woe to you....you travel....to win one proselyte and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves."
Yeshua would never tell people to follow someone who would lead them to hell!

There is a Hebrew Bible according to Shem Tov that differs from the Greek translations the English translators use.
In that Hebrew Matthew it translates one word in Matt. 23:3 differently which makes it agree with the rest of the chapter. It says, "all, therefore, whatever HE [not they] tells you to observe, observe and do, but according to their works, do not do, for they say and do not do." Yeshua actually said obey Moses not those who claim they have the authority of Moses by sitting in his seat.
Ruth

Dear Ruth,
I agree with you. Yeshu said to obey what Moses wrote. I agree...we should be observing and obeying the commandments we received from Moses, and not necessarily the Rabbi rules which we get from our Pharasetic ancestors. But Paul was anti-Torah. He dumped Moses on the trash heap. Do today's Christians obey Moses? Ask them "Why Not?" and they will say "The Law has been done away with".

Stuart Shepherd

[stuart shepherd]

Quote: From Stuart Shepherd

I wonder who are Paul's witnesses that Jesus gave Paul all his anti-Torah assertions? Are we supposed to believe the words of a murderer without witnesses? Paul was guilty of Felony Murder in the death of Stephen. [Acts 7] He was an accomplice in a Felony, the murder of Stephen, guilty of Felony Murder.
Stuart Shepherd


Ruth replied.......Quote
There are instruction for court judgements in the Word of God. Outside a legitimate court that uses the Scripture for it's decisions, we cannot make a judgement. Judgement of Paul is in God's hands. God forgave David's murder and adultery to use him as a writer of God's Word.
We have the Tanach as the basis for determining the truth of other Biblical writings. That is what the Bereans used to confirm Paul's teachings to them.
Ruth

Paul was a murderer. We only have Paul's word that Jesus spoke to him. There are no other witnesses or collaboration of his story. If Paul's words would agree with what we have in the Tanakh, I could believe him. But Paul dumps the Sabbath, the Holidays, Circumcision, the Dietary Laws and probably everything else except for the tithe.

Deuteronomy 13:1-5 (King James Version)
1If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,

2And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;

3Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

4Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

5And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

Israel believes in ONE God, and your duty is to obey his commandments. But Paul has seduced you to follow a Triune god and abandon the Law that was given by Moses.

Stuart Shepherd

[Williamrist]

[QUOTE=stuart shepherd]

Ruth wrote...

Most English translations say what you have written. But, Matthew 23:2, "On the seat of Moses sat the scribes and pharisees" must be seen in context. In Matthew 23:34 Yeshua says of them, "serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape Hell?" 28 says, "Even so you outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness." 15, "Woe to you....you travel....to win one proselyte and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves."
Yeshua would never tell people to follow someone who would lead them to hell!

There is a Hebrew Bible according to Shem Tov that differs from the Greek translations the English translators use.
In that Hebrew Matthew it translates one word in Matt. 23:3 differently which makes it agree with the rest of the chapter. It says, "all, therefore, whatever HE [not they] tells you to observe, observe and do, but according to their works, do not do, for they say and do not do." Yeshua actually said obey Moses not those who claim they have the authority of Moses by sitting in his seat.
Ruth

Dear Ruth,
I agree with you. Yeshu said to obey what Moses wrote. I agree...we should be observing and obeying the commandments we received from Moses, and not necessarily the Rabbi rules which we get from our Pharasetic ancestors. But Paul was anti-Torah. He dumped Moses on the trash heap. Do today's Christians obey Moses? Ask them "Why Not?" and they will say "The Law has been done away with".

Stuart Shepherd

Perhaps the Law of Moses, exist to those in Israel.
The Law of Moses, is basically the Torah, which is the first 5 books of the bible. Basically the Law of Moses is 5 books, they do not recognize Jesus Christ. They left out Joshua thru Revelation. Revelation says anyone who takes away or adds to the bible, would receive plagues or lose out in the
the tree of life. Revelation 22:18-19

[Williamrist]

[QUOTE=Williamrist]

Perhaps the Law of Moses, exist to those in Israel.
The Law of Moses, is basically the Torah, which is the first 5 books of the bible. Basically the Law of Moses is 5 books, they do not recognize Jesus Christ. They left out Joshua thru Revelation. Revelation says anyone who takes away or adds to the bible, would receive plagues or lose out in the
the tree of life. Revelation 22:18-19

Galatians 5:1-6,no
longer under the law, Romans 3:28, no longer under the law. (NIV) If Jesus
Christ, were physically seen today, many would still try to crucify Him, again under the law.

[ruthrush]

[QUOTE=Williamrist]

Galatians 5:1-6,no
longer under the law, Romans 3:28, no longer under the law. (NIV) If Jesus
Christ, were physically seen today, many would still try to crucify Him, again under the law.

Gal.5:1-6
1. Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Messiah hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Messiah shall profit you nothing.
3. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4. Messiah is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by law; ye are fallen from grace.
5. For in Messiah Yeshua neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

This is written to gentiles only, just as the Acts 15 rules were only written to gentiles.
Like the Acts 15 Jerusalem Council rulings, new gentiles just coming out of paganism, were given only 4 laws to keep them away from the pagan worship until they had time to learn about Torah. The four laws the new believers were told to obey were not the 10 commandments or the 2 love laws or even the Laws of Noah.
The Jerusalem Council said that adult circumcision was a "custom" of Moses not a Law of God and the new gentile believers did not need to be circumcised and become Jews.

Here in Galatians, Paul tells these gentiles the same thing. They have been told that they needed to be circumcised and become Jews to be saved by Yeshua. That was a lie. Salvation is through faith in Yeshua. They are not to believe these outsiders who say you must be a Jew and obey the Law to be saved. Yeshua has already given them salvation. Note verse 4 does not say "The" Law (The Mosaic Covenant Law), it just says "Law". There is no Law you can obey and become saved.
So as you can see, this passage is not about annulling the Law of God. It's about salvation by faith.

Rom.3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of Law.

This also is about salvation. It also is not about annulling the Law of God. It too does not say "The Law" (the MC Law) but any Law. Since the Noahide Covenant lasts as long as there is a rainbow, we are still under the Noahide Law (Gen.9) at least.
Ruth

[ruthrush]

[QUOTE=Williamrist]

Perhaps the Law of Moses, exist to those in Israel.
The Law of Moses, is basically the Torah, which is the first 5 books of the bible. Basically the Law of Moses is 5 books, they do not recognize Jesus Christ. They left out Joshua thru Revelation. Revelation says anyone who takes away or adds to the bible, would receive plagues or lose out in the
the tree of life. Revelation 22:18-19

Gen.49:10-12 (part of the Torah) says,
The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto Him shall the obedience of the people be. Binding His foal unto the vine, and His ass's colt unto the choice vine; He washed His garments in wine, and His clothes in the blood of grapes:His eyes shall be red with wine, and His teeth white with milk.

Shiloh is Yeshua the Messiah.
Ruth

[Williamrist]

[QUOTE=ruthrush]

Gen.49:10-12 (part of the Torah) says,
The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto Him shall the obedience of the people be. Binding His foal unto the vine, and His ass's colt unto the choice vine; He washed His garments in wine, and His clothes in the blood of grapes:His eyes shall be red with wine, and His teeth white with milk.

Shiloh is Yeshua the Messiah.
Ruth

Jesus Christ, once said apart from me you can do nothing on your own.
If all there is is Torah, then everyone is condemned already. Jesus cannot be crucified a second time. It was the Torah,that condemned and killed Jesus
Christ, the first time, but never again. It was the religious pharisees who wanted the power and greed in exchange for Jesus Christ, and yet it still
exist today. Jesus, blood replaced the law. Jesus, warned against false prophets in the end days. Man needs to take heed to His warning. Jesus,
once said whoever sees the son has seen the Father, sounds like one in the same to me. It will be interesting when Christ returns, how many will renounce the Torah. They will only believe just like Thomas.