Was the Apostle Paul a Jew or a Gentile?

[LivniHaNetzari]

You are right to call it a "tradition" and not a Law of God. But you are wrong to say it was in place at the time of Paul. The Qumram scrolls, the Apocrypha or the Pseudepigrapha never mention it. Philo and Josephus's writings do not support it. It was first discussed in the writings in the Mishnah in the late 1st century AD and the rulings to support it were introduced in the 2nd century AD. A good researched book is "The Beginnings of Jewishness" by Shaye J.D. Cohen.
Ruth



Roman Law said that the child of a female Roman citizen who marries a non-Roman has Roman citizenship.
Ruth

You're own "Scriptures" testify that Jews considered matrilineal descent.

And Paul came also to Derbe and to Lystra. A disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a Jewish woman who was a believer; but his father was a Greek. He was well spoken of by the brethren at Lystra and Iconium. Paul wanted Timothy to accompany him; and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews that were in those places, for they all knew that his father was a Greek. As they went on their way through the cities, they delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem. So the churches were strengthened in the faith, and they increased in numbers daily. {Acts 16:1-5 RSV}

[ruthrush]

You're own "Scriptures" testify that Jews considered matrilineal descent.

And Paul came also to Derbe and to Lystra. A disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a Jewish woman who was a believer; but his father was a Greek. He was well spoken of by the brethren at Lystra and Iconium. Paul wanted Timothy to accompany him; and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews that were in those places, for they all knew that his father was a Greek. As they went on their way through the cities, they delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem. So the churches were strengthened in the faith, and they increased in numbers daily. {Acts 16:1-5 RSV}

If he was a Jew, why wasn't he circumcised on the 8th day?
Ruth

[LivniHaNetzari]

If he was a Jew, why wasn't he circumcised on the 8th day?
Ruth

The passage shows that Paul associated himself closely with Jews assimilated into Pagan Greek culture and was attempting to infiltrate and convert pious observant Jews so he circumcized his buddy to put on a visade of observance to legitamize him.

And, of course, if he wasn't Jewish why did Paul who hated circumcision and pretty much anything associated with Judaism snip this guy?

And, of course to those asking "So what?" if Paul was Greek.... How are you going to trust someone invented by someone who consistently lies? If he would lie about his lineage, why would trust the even less believable story about somekind of supernatural light being appearing to him?

[Goonerman]

OK. Let's be clear on this. Paul resisted circumcising Titus because he was totally Gentile. Timothy was circumcised by Paul because he was Jewish, and to keep the Jewish community happy. His mother Eunice and grandmother Lois were Jewish. The matrineal descent pattern for Jews is as accepted as is patrilineal. The key to why Timothy was not circumcised as a baby is due to the fact that his father was a Greek. In other words, Timothy's dad must have prevented the 8th day circumcision from taking place. Paul made amends for this. He is not hostile towards circumcision, but to circumcision being imposed on Gentiles. See Galatians for this, and don't forget, he tells the male Jewish believers NOT to remove the marks of their circumcision. As for Paul's Roman citizenship and parental heritage, a whopping big clue to his mother's side of the family lies in Romans 16. He mentions his relative Herodion. So we know that Shaul Paulus was descended from King Saul through his father, and was a Benjaminite. It would indeed appear that Paul, whose father was also a Roman citizen, got it through his father's marriage into the Herodian family. The Herods were Roman citizens, and Idumeans (Edomites) who had on the surface converted to Judaism. Herod Agrippa II seems to have been the one Herod who really took a genuine interest in Judaism.

And I will repeat again, Paul may have been born in Tarsus, but he was not brought up there, but in Jerusalem, where he was trained in the Yeshiva of Gamaliel I. I note with amusement that some in this thread condemn Paul as a Gentile fraud, while others are against him as someone who martyred Stephen. Tell me this: what possible motive would a Jew who fanatically persecuted the followers of Jesus have for saying that a light struck him down and the resurrected Jesus confronted him and changed him around? Paul lost everything, including, in the end, his own life. Had he stayed as he was, his life would have been a great deal easier.

And, did James really counter Paul with his letter? When James said faith is dead without works, he was countering those who said they had the gift of faith, and others said they had the gift of works. He was showing the absurdity of such a view. Paul also counters any heretical antinomian tendencies found by those who mistakenly thought that faith could come without works following. Check out:

Romans 6:15-23, which is the Pauline version of James 2:14-26.
Romans 8
Romans 12
Ephesians 2:1-10

Paul says that we are saved, ie made right with God through faith in Christ's blood shed for us, and that we are saved unto good works. James says that faith is dead without the works following, so Paul talks about Abraham's being saved initially by faith, but James talks about the outworking of that salvation with a completed salvation in which Abraham's faith was put into practice. Paul spoke of this completed salvation as well. So the concept was of initial justification by faith, the good works that follow (which Paul and James agree on), sanctification, and going to Heaven and finally the Resurrection from the dead. Paul is targeting those who think they can earn salvation by good works. James is targeting those who think that since faith saves, and not works, that somehow a faith without works saves, that they can do what they like. Both are in agreement. Those who have faith then do good works. Those who either do only good works, or only have 'faith' in terms of head-knowledge belief like the Devil and his angels, and no works to follow on, are not saved.

As for the claim that Paul is more Jewish than Jesus, please tell me how this is possible???

[ruthrush]

Goonerman

OK. Let's be clear on this. Paul resisted circumcising Titus because he was totally Gentile. Timothy was circumcised by Paul because he was Jewish, and to keep the Jewish community happy. His mother Eunice and grandmother Lois were Jewish. The matrineal descent pattern for Jews is as accepted as is patrilineal.

Timothy was not Jewish. Matrilinear descent was not accepted until later. Matrilinear descent is not Biblical! It is a rabbinic invention.
If a male child of a male Jewish man is not circumcised on the 8th day, he is not part of the Abrahamic covenant. See Gen.17.
Look at Jer.31:31-33. The Houses of Israel and Judah are described as the descendents of those males who came out of Egypt.
Ruth

<snipped>

[michel]

I personally believe that Saul was not a Jew because of his mother. But that is not that important. The important fact is how Saul related to Judaism and how that affected Christianity.

Saul clearly understood Jesus perception of Judaism as a "false" covenant. Jesus clearly indicated that it was wrong to eat differently, use blood sacrifice to gain favors from God, think that God can be restrained inside a building or a room or a box, to think of God as a terrifying figure.

Jesus claimed a new covenant that was not linked to a real estate deal (do this and you will get a promised land). Jesus believed in a relationship of love between a father and his children. PERIOD.

Saul helped Christianity by forcing the split from the "false" covenant. And I thank him as a Christian.

As an Orthodox Christian I see myself as the son of Saul in contradiction with Simon / Peter who I perceive as a Jew in his believes and his relationship with Judaism. The sons of Simon are the Catholics.

If it was not for Saul (and if it was left to Simon), then Christianity would have been just another Jewish sect.

Catholics celebrate the Bar Mitzvah (first communion), they use Azim bread in Eucharist (when Jesus specifically ate raised bread AND drank wine during the last supper in defiance with Jewish Pesach) , they have a grand priest and have recreated the temple of Jerusalem in Rome (the Vatican), they dispensed sinners with pardon based on material offerings to the Church, Catholics even sold places in Heaven!

May God bless Saul the gentile!

Michel

[37818]

I personally believe that Saul was not a Jew because of his mother. But that is not that important. The important fact is how Saul related to Judaism and how that affected Christianity.

Saul clearly understood Jesus perception of Judaism as a "false" covenant. Jesus clearly indicated that it was wrong to eat differently, use blood sacrifice to gain favors from God, think that God can be restrained inside a building or a room or a box, to think of God as a terrifying figure.

Jesus claimed a new covenant that was not linked to a real estate deal (do this and you will get a promised land). Jesus believed in a relationship of love between a father and his children. PERIOD.

Saul helped Christianity by forcing the split from the "false" covenant. And I thank him as a Christian.

As an Orthodox Christian I see myself as the son of Saul in contradiction with Simon / Peter who I perceive as a Jew in his believes and his relationship with Judaism. The sons of Simon are the Catholics.

If it was not for Saul (and if it was left to Simon), then Christianity would have been just another Jewish sect.

Catholics celebrate the Bar Mitzvah (first communion), they use Azim bread in Eucharist (when Jesus specifically ate raised bread AND drank wine during the last supper in defiance with Jewish Pesach) , they have a grand priest and have recreated the temple of Jerusalem in Rome (the Vatican), they dispensed sinners with pardon based on material offerings to the Church, Catholics even sold places in Heaven!

May God bless Saul the gentile!

Michel

Paul was a Jew. Your assertion, "Saul was not a Jew because of his mother," is not true. Even if where so, Gentiles do covert to Judaism even today. The evidence is Saul/Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin and a Jew by faith.

[37818]

There are two famous women of faith who were Gentiles and converted to Judaism. Rahab the Canaanite and Ruth the Moabite. They are counted as being Jewish women. So unless one can show the Saul's mother was Gentile woman who did not convert to Judaism, you cannot even validly claim the Apostle Paul was a Gentile who was the tribe of Benjamin and a convert ot Judaism from being a Gentile.

[shunyadragon]

There are two famous women of faith who were Gentiles and converted to Judaism. Rahab the Canaanite and Ruth the Moabite. They are counted as being Jewish women. So unless one can show the Saul's mother was Gentile woman who did not convert to Judaism, you cannot even validly claim the Apostle Paul was a Gentile who was the tribe of Benjamin and a convert ot Judaism from being a Gentile.

Your ignoring the evidence presented.

[seanD]

Your ignoring the evidence presented.

Evidence for what?

[michel]

Like I said earlier, the fact that we can prove without doubt that Saul was not a Jew it is not that important for me. Suffice to say that there are enough elements to doubt his Jewish heritage.

Also like I said. what is really important is how Saul dealt with Judaism and how his perceptions, actions and writings influenced Christianity.

Saul's attitude towards Judaism created a split between the "Hebrew Christians" and the "Helen Christians" in Jerusalem. We have evidence that the two communities did not live in harmony and that the Greek Christians were persecuted by the followers of Simon / Peter the Jew BECAUSE they were perceived as being GENTILES.

Saul is the catalyst force that managed to save Christianity from Judaism and by doing so helped it become the world's leading religion. Despite Simon / Peter the Jew who renounced Jesus on so many occasions.

God bless our beloved Saul.

Michel

[seanD]

The guy was of the tribe of Benjamin. The reason he was arrested in Jerusalem was for bringing a Gentile into the temple where Gentiles were prohibited.

[The Pixie]

So what is the evidence that Paul was not Jewish? The argument in the OP is certainly not persuasive; is there anything more than that?

[37818]

Your ignoring the evidence presented.

The evidence of the NT is Saul/Paul was a Jew. So there is NO evidence he was a Gentile.

[Doug Shaver]

Is it possible that Paul was really a Gentile masquerading as a Jew?

Of course it's possible, but I don't think a writer should ever be accused of lying unless there is compelling evidence for it. If Paul said he was a Jew, then I'm going to suppose he was a Jew until I have a very good reason to think otherwise. And I don't think a good reason is some proof text that could, with some effort, be interpreted as his claiming to be a gentile.