Christian Psychology

[silasjones]

I'm sure this topic has been tossed around quite a bit... but hey, gotta keep the fire stoked.

I'm a sophomore in college and just over the course of the last semester I switched my major from psychology to philosophy. The reason I did this was that I've really been struggling with how Christians can reconcile the idea of being wholly dependent on God, as opposed to trying out such and such a new technique in order to improve their lives.

While I'm sure it's possible to reconcile the two things, I'm just very wary about psychological practice because it seems to me to advocate an entirely man-centered anthropology, whereas Christianity says that it must be God-centered. Psychology treats sin as adjustmental disorders, and vice versa for Christianity.

Any thoughts on what truly Christian practice of psychology would look like? I think it would start with its basis as having clients admit their sinfulness, but it seems like there wouldn't be anywhere for Christian counseling to go other than people confessing and keeping each other accountable... which is something I think the church exists for, not specialists.

Would love to hear your thoughts.

[Piebald]

I'm interested in finding a Christian psychologist or counselor. One of the greatest sources of my depression is my homosexual orientation and the fact that I'll probably be without a family or partner for the rest of my life. If I go to a secular psychologist they are just likely to diagnose me with religious mania and try to cure my religious conviction, not help me cope with this reality. In psychology if you are functioning properly (aka happy, satisfied) then the psychologist has done his job. That can be very helpful in many ways, where our happiness and satisfaction does not conflict with the will of God, but it's a dead end in many other ways.

[Minnesota]

You switched majors from psychology to philosophy because psychology wasn't answering some religious question that was bugging you. WOW! I don't know if you're getting a free ride through school or not, but it has to be cheaper to get outside counseling than waste your time and money pursuing a major just to answer a single question. Most people approach college a bit more seriously. Most people have to.

[Piebald]

waste your time and money pursuing a major just to answer a single question

Yeah, and something as trivial as 'the meaning of life' to boot!

[silasjones]

You switched majors from psychology to philosophy because psychology wasn't answering some religious question that was bugging you. WOW! I don't know if you're getting a free ride through school or not, but it has to be cheaper to get outside counseling than waste your time and money pursuing a major just to answer a single question. Most people approach college a bit more seriously. Most people have to.

well, as for the free ride part, actually i am getting a free ride, lol... tuition exchange. but as for the other stuff... wth? i originally was interested in psychology because i love people and i really want to have a good understanding of what motivates and drives people, not because i was trying to answer some pressing religious question.

to re-explain exactly why i switched my major, for one psychology has a lot in conflict with the idea of god. the premise upon which christianity rests is that god is the all-satisfying, all-sufficient being upon whom we must rest ourselves - and not on our own confidence in the things we do. from a christian perspective, the only reason we have problems psychologically is because of sin. so, it seems to me that the solution to the problem is to rely wholly on god, and not on methods for solving problems that ignore him. (this is not something i am applying to psychiatry or other medicines, because if it comes down to a matter of choice then the issue is valid, as we can choose to rely on god; in medical matters, we cannot simply choose to change our biological makeup.)

and frankly, philosophy matters. bravo for completely misunderstanding what i said though

[silasjones]

I'm interested in finding a Christian psychologist or counselor. One of the greatest sources of my depression is my homosexual orientation and the fact that I'll probably be without a family or partner for the rest of my life. If I go to a secular psychologist they are just likely to diagnose me with religious mania and try to cure my religious conviction, not help me cope with this reality. In psychology if you are functioning properly (aka happy, satisfied) then the psychologist has done his job. That can be very helpful in many ways, where our happiness and satisfaction does not conflict with the will of God, but it's a dead end in many other ways.

ever heard of a book called "reparative therapy of the male homosexual" by somebody nicolosi? one of my family members is also homosexually oriented and struggles with this as well. he's been part of a lot of guys groups (not entirely christian, but certainly more narth-ish.) speaking of narth... if you've never heard of them, from what i understand they've basically rejected the apa's stance on homosexuality and said that it is possible to change a person's orientation (not that this should be done to people who don't want to, but that it should be an option should they want to.)

[Minnesota]

and frankly, philosophy matters. bravo for completely misunderstanding what i said though

If you had simply said, "the reason I left psychology was blah, blah, blah," my response would have been quite different, but by saying that you left psychology in favor of philosophy because of blah, blah, blah implies that philosophy would address the blah, blah, blah. If you don't want to be misunderstood maybe a quick reread of your composition would be in order before posting.

the only reason we have problems psychologically is because of sin. so, it seems to me that the solution to the problem is to rely wholly on god, and not on methods for solving problems that ignore him. (this is not something i am applying to psychiatry or other medicines, because if it comes down to a matter of choice then the issue is valid, as we can choose to rely on god; in medical matters, we cannot simply choose to change our biological makeup.)

You are aware, are you not, that psychiatry is rooted in psychology?

[silasjones]

If you had simply said, "the reason I left psychology was blah, blah, blah," my response would have been quite different, but by saying that you left psychology in favor of philosophy because of blah, blah, blah implies that philosophy would address the blah, blah, blah. If you don't want to be misunderstood maybe a quick reread of your composition would be in order before posting.

eh? and you got "you were looking for the answer to one deeply religious question by studying psychology for years?" from that?

You are aware, are you not, that psychiatry is rooted in psychology?

absolutely. which is why i make the distinction of saying that psychology deals with adjustmental disorders (at least so far as fixing goes), whereas psychiatry deals primariliy with medical disorders. testing for either of these problems doesn't necessarily belong in either category by itself, in my opinion.

[Teallaura]

I've really never seen the conflict here. It's not any different from preventative medical care (i.e. wellness) that requires behavioral change. Ignoring the ideology behind it for the moment (which can vary), psychology is just a useful tool in an arsenal - it detracts nothing from God or being God-centered in and of itself.

Not every behavioral issue is a sin issue, oddly enough. Anger issues aren't sin issues unless acted out (not everyone will). Social issues are likewise not always sin related - some people just do not develop normally in social terms. Being said same, I found psychology enormously helpful. My counselor did nothing to undermine my faith - he just helped me learn how to engage and function socially.

Granted a counselor can undermine faith - but that's merely a bad counselor to my mind because that's not dealing with the real the problem. I had another Christian counselor years later dealing with depression and frankly we spent time dealing with the issue proper, not my (then growing) faith. A different issue might have been approached differently, but I'm not sure necessarily so - predilection or inclination are not themselves sin. It's the acting out, not the temptation itself, that is sinful. It seems to me that distinction would have to be made case by case.

I don't see the conflict - yes, psychology can be misused - as can psychiatry or most anything else - but I just don't see where that conflicts with a God centered life unless it is actually misused.

[Piebald]

ever heard of a book called "reparative therapy of the male homosexual" by somebody nicolosi? one of my family members is also homosexually oriented and struggles with this as well. he's been part of a lot of guys groups (not entirely christian, but certainly more narth-ish.) speaking of narth... if you've never heard of them, from what i understand they've basically rejected the apa's stance on homosexuality and said that it is possible to change a person's orientation (not that this should be done to people who don't want to, but that it should be an option should they want to.)

I've heard of such therapies, but I've also seen a lot of stuff which says that they don't work. That the orientation might be so ingrained that it's impossible to change. I am willing to look into it further, but I can't start bringing home those materials or going to groups. My family does not know about what I'm going through and I have no desire to tell them, so if I start bringing home books and videos about "curing homosexuality" (I'm a 26 year old who has never so much as gone on a date let alone have a girlfriend) the jig will definitely be up. I'll look into it more, further down the road, when I'm on my own and not living with family.

To be honest, I don't know if I want to be "heterosexual," I'd prefer to be "non-sexual" and in some sort of monastic life.

[silasjones]

I've heard of such therapies, but I've also seen a lot of stuff which says that they don't work. That the orientation might be so ingrained that it's impossible to change. I am willing to look into it further, but I can't start bringing home those materials or going to groups. My family does not know about what I'm going through and I have no desire to tell them, so if I start bringing home books and videos about "curing homosexuality" (I'm a 26 year old who has never so much as gone on a date let alone have a girlfriend) the jig will definitely be up. I'll look into it more, further down the road, when I'm on my own and not living with family.

To be honest, I don't know if I want to be "heterosexual," I'd prefer to be "non-sexual" and in some sort of monastic life.

Well, that certainly works. I'm not homosexual my self, but I've personally come to the point where I don't really care if I ever have a sexual and/or marriage relationship with somebody else... Like Paul says in 1 Corinthians 7, "It is good for a man not to marry," and I can see the practical benefits.... If I want to go and do missions works (and I do) I don't have to worry about the safety of a family, and can concentrate my efforts (and money, woot) on serving God and not be distracted by the effort of raising a family (not that raising a familiy, etc. is a bad thing, as Paul even says that some people do need to be married.) And plus it takes away one comeback my mom can have when she says I should clean my house... :-p "But when you want to have a relationship...." "Sorry, don't really care about that." "Down with you, fool!"

I can relate to your situation with your family to a large degree. When struggling with sexual issues - whether homo/heterosexual - it's still difficult to let your family know that you struggle with issues of this variety... And this is HORRIBLY complicated by our society. In our society, if a person is homosexual, the Christian church has removed people with that struggle from their midst so much because they view the struggle itself as sin and stigmatize it, instead of loving those who are homosexual and keeping them accountable just like they would any homosexual person. Speaking of which, keeping heterosexual friends accountable seems like it's almost non-existent in the church, which adds to the stigmatization of homosexuality.... People view heterosexual sin as "normal" and some churches even encourage it. Shame shame, Church.

[God_is_personal]

The things you share, Silas, sound pretty good, and interesting. Thanks. We could get into this quite a lot more.

Piebald, I respect and appreciate how you admit homosexuality is not God's will for us; and I feel for you, how you can still have problems with it, even though you have been honest like you have. So, thanks for sharing so personally.

I believe God can change a homosexual, so the person doesn't have those nagging tendencies and driving emotions that I think you are saying you still can have. But are you doing better, at least, by trusting God to make you better? You sound like you're getting somewhere...though not perfect, at least able to admit to how you need help. When I was not a Christian, I could be in absolute DENIAL about ANYTHING that could mean there was ANY thing, at all, wrong with me. But now as a Christian, at least I have the courage to admit how I am wrong...better than before, a LOT better...even though this admitting does NOT just make a problem go right away.

In my case...I still have nagging sexual tendencies and thoughts with effective manipulation to get me to do what I do NOT really wish to do...this after twenty-five years, supposedly, of Christian experience. And it's discouraging, and I can get depressed after giving in to this stuff (by myself). When wrong sexual stuff gets the better of me, it also degrades me from God's love...obviously. So this is how I know it is wrong...no matter how I may rationalize and justify it. My wrong sexual stuff does N-O-T have me sweetly sharing with God in His love so sweet and pleasant and gentle and nicely quiet, and loving ALL other people caringly in prayer. So, I KNOW that "MY" sexual nonsense is NOT of God's love...but degrading.

But, with years of dealing with this, I think I'm doing better. It's not as bad as it used to be. "Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much." (James 5:16) You are a brother in Christ, Piebald? Then YOU can pray for ME to do better!!! Because a righteous man, I offer, does NOT mean some super-holy, super-spiritual saint, but you who care about what God wants, believe He is able to CURE me, and are willing to ask Him to. And what you intend for me, you shall REAP for yourself!!!

[Matt the Bat]

I have a christian counselor who has said that the actual success rate for someone to change is actually small, so don't be suprised if you can't get anything out of it.

[God_is_personal]

A "christian counselor" said that. We could get some clarification. Are you saying not to get your hopes too high about COUNSELING? OR do you mean not to expect much from God ? Because there is a B-I-G diff between what a person struggling with homosexuality can expect from a paid counselor, versus from God Himself.

AND, not to mention...how "a number" of those ones who failed may not have been serious Christians. How they really are about changing can have a lot to do with it. Not to mention...how ones in institutionalized religion may be copy-catting sacramental ceremony without getting actual grace to change them. So, I'm curious, which religious group is this person working with, if any?

God will give you PEACE. Peace does N-O-T have any nagging dominating dictatorial emotions and drives in this peace of Jesus...I offer, from experience. BUT, I can STILL have problems while I am away from this grace of God's love...especially while I am giving in to just worrying about my own self...including my own guilt, instead of getting over it, and getting busy with forgiving and caring about others also. As I get into caring more about others, this caring in love helps make me strong against wrong stuff getting the better of me.

Another thing...Jesus has clearly said, "Freely you have received, freely give." (in Matthew 10:8) So I understand that I do not have to pay money to get help that is really God's help. And ones charging money, could be disobeying God, and so possibly their counseling will be missing something. I think mutual accountability with other Christians can work very well, according to James 5:16 which I offered above. I don't think it's right how ones with more unusual problems are marginalized AND required to pay for help that THEY need!!! Jesus is free.

[Carico]

I'm sure this topic has been tossed around quite a bit... but hey, gotta keep the fire stoked.

I'm a sophomore in college and just over the course of the last semester I switched my major from psychology to philosophy. The reason I did this was that I've really been struggling with how Christians can reconcile the idea of being wholly dependent on God, as opposed to trying out such and such a new technique in order to improve their lives.

While I'm sure it's possible to reconcile the two things, I'm just very wary about psychological practice because it seems to me to advocate an entirely man-centered anthropology, whereas Christianity says that it must be God-centered. Psychology treats sin as adjustmental disorders, and vice versa for Christianity.

Any thoughts on what truly Christian practice of psychology would look like? I think it would start with its basis as having clients admit their sinfulness, but it seems like there wouldn't be anywhere for Christian counseling to go other than people confessing and keeping each other accountable... which is something I think the church exists for, not specialists.

Would love to hear your thoughts.

What Christian psychology centers around is admitting our sins and receiving God's forgiveness for them, period. That's what heals people. It's that simple.