Originally posted by Sparko
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Shalom!
This forum is a debate area to discuss issues pertaining to the world religion of Judaism in general and also its relationship to Christianity. This forum is generally for theists only. Non-theists (eg, atheistic Jews) may not post here without first obtaining permission from the moderator of this forum. Granting of such permission is subject to Moderator discretion - and may be revoked if the Moderator feels that the poster is not keeping with the spirit of the World Religions Department.
Non-theists are welcome to discuss and debate issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Forum Rules: Here
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Kosher Kill Challenged
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Originally posted by Outis View PostThe parallel there would be if the Jews agitated for laws that mandated that all meat animals were slaughtered in kosher fashion, and no non-kosher animals would be used for meat.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostNo. we are just talking about respecting other religion's traditions and beliefs and not making them conform to secular society's idea of how they should act or what they should believe.
What you believe is up to you. What your church does is up to what church governance decides. But attempting to impose your church doctrines on the secular law is just as wrong as if the Jews attempted to impose kosher standards on secular food laws for all people, regardless of whether or not they are Jewish or keep kosher.
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Originally posted by Outis View PostActually, Sparko, in the case of gay marriage, those Christians who oppose it are asking for far more than " respecting other religion's traditions and beliefs and not making them conform to secular society's idea of how they should act or what they should believe." No one in the US is asking Christian churches to marry gays if their doctrines forbid them to do so. Gays are asking for equality before the _secular_ law--nothing less. Nothing more.
What you believe is up to you. What your church does is up to what church governance decides. But attempting to impose your church doctrines on the secular law is just as wrong as if the Jews attempted to impose kosher standards on secular food laws for all people, regardless of whether or not they are Jewish or keep kosher.
And I am sure it will only be a matter of time before churches are sued for not performing gay marriages too. The slope is getting slippery.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postβλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostI was talking about forcing Christians to participate and affirm gay marriages, like making them cakes and taking photos.
It is like forcing Jews to shoot their cows in the head instead of using kosher methods because society doesn't believe kosher should be allowed even if it is their belief.
And I am sure it will only be a matter of time before churches are sued for not performing gay marriages too. The slope is getting slippery.
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostEngland has a state church so their situation is not that comparable to the United States.
PS - The law in England regarding religious beliefs and freedoms from infringment are similar to ours, even thought the church of England is a state church. From the article I linked to:
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Section 9 of the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act 2013, which comes into effect next year, grants anyone in a civil partnership the ability to convert that partnership into a “marriage.” But the law contains measures specifically to preclude unwilling churches from being forced to participate.
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Originally posted by Outis View PostSparko, those who are engaged in public commerce are required to serve all equally.
When I owned my computer business, I was free NOT to take on clients who wanted me to install phone systems or computer networks in their "gentlemen's clubs" or strip joints.
You can refuse to allow a child to ride a roller coaster unless he is "this tall".
(wow... this thread is morphing into the "Arizona Law" thread)The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Outis View PostActually, Sparko, in the case of gay marriage, those Christians who oppose it are asking for far more than " respecting other religion's traditions and beliefs and not making them conform to secular society's idea of how they should act or what they should believe." No one in the US is asking Christian churches to marry gays if their doctrines forbid them to do so. Gays are asking for equality before the _secular_ law--nothing less. Nothing more.
What you believe is up to you. What your church does is up to what church governance decides. But attempting to impose your church doctrines on the secular law is just as wrong as if the Jews attempted to impose kosher standards on secular food laws for all people, regardless of whether or not they are Jewish or keep kosher.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by Outis View PostWhere am I using weasel words, Jedidiah?
I care not one whit what you believe. I care not one whit what you do in your churches. My only concern is what occurs in secular law, and in public commerce.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by Jedidiah View PostWithout twisting things around as you have the two things are the same. The real difference is you accept one and not the other. I reject both. That is what I mean by weasel words.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostThere have been similar cases in the USA where pastors refused to perform civil unions for gays in their church or let them use their facilities. It is just a matter of time here. Once SS marriage is common and legal, then you will see the same lawsuits here.
PS - The law in England regarding religious beliefs and freedoms from infringment are similar to ours, even thought the church of England is a state church. From the article I linked to:
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Section 9 of the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act 2013, which comes into effect next year, grants anyone in a civil partnership the ability to convert that partnership into a “marriage.” But the law contains measures specifically to preclude unwilling churches from being forced to participate.
---βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostWhich is why they are challenging the law in court, but it is much less likely that the 1st Amendment of our Constitution would be overturned over here.
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