Pentecostal Experiences

[The Midge]

In repose to family of fives response to Lost's post on this thread:
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...=1#post1750437

Hi Lost...I would like to say that I do not want to trivialize your experience, nor am I attempting to say that you are wrong. There is no way that I could be inside your head or judge the experience you had. I am only responding as far as my own personal opinion is concerned. With that said...

I would not think god was real because my knees gave out.

I think people greatly underestimate what the human mind can accomplish. There have been studies that have shown that there is a higher cure rate for cancer patients with a positive attitude. Also, there have been studies that have shown people with a positive attitude live longer. There was a recent study done which concluded that when people pray for a loved one who is sick it does nothing for the sick person; however it helps the person who is doing the praying to feel better about the situation. This stands to reason; anyone who can take a few moments to themselves and have any kind of meditation is going to have some relief from stress. In essence, this is exactly what praying really is.

Is sounds like I'm getting off track here, but the point I'm trying to make is this: If you really need to believe in god, your mind will make sure that it finds a sign for you. I have no doubt that your mind can even 'manifest' a sign in your own body, as in your 'knees giving out' experience. The human mind is amazing. It will cause you to pass out in instances of extreme pain. If you concentrate and breathe and meditate during childbirth, the pain is minimalized. In some cases, a person who has lived through an extreme tragedy (sexual molestation as a child, seeing a parent get killed...etc) the mind will block entire spans of time to protect the victim from the emotional duress. These aren't perfect examples, but you can understand the point I'm making.

Think about some of the dreams we have. I woke up a few weeks ago in a cold sweat because I dreamt that one of my close friends was killed in a car accident. Even more oddly, I dreamt that he was speaking to me in my dream after he died...something I don't even remotely believe could happen. But when I first awoke, that dream felt so real I had to pick up the phone and call him right away. Of course, he was fine, but my mind really had my tricked for a few minutes...even after I was awake.

There are some people who see 'signs' in everything. Do you remember those email forwards that were being circulated after 9/11? They would find phrases that had 9 or 11 letters in them and call it a 'sign'. Any type of pattern, some people will often see as a sign. I picked up the phone to call a friend of mine the other day and she was already on the line. My phone hadn't rung...she had just dialed at exactly the same time I had. I could see something like that as a 'sign'.

To summarize, something as simple as my knees giving out when I said the word 'god', would not give me even the faintest amount of doubt in my standing as an atheist. If god would like to have another one of his kids born from a virgin down here on Earth today, and then if I could be present for his 'rising from the dead'....obviously that's a reason to believe in a god. If I were stone cold sober and a god floated down in front of me from the sky and spoke to me....I'm a believer. (or I'm insane...) Barring any of those events taking place, I'm an atheist.

In my opinion, it's a heck of a lot easier to convince myself that something is a coincidence than it is to convince myself that it was the work of a unicorn, or a leprachaun, or a god...it's all the same to me.

It sounds like you need your religion and that you're happy with it, so I'm glad that you have it. For me, I still don't see any of that as proof that a god exsists.

I think you are missing the point of Lost's post. I don't think that is your fault because such an encounter with God has not happened to you. I have had Pentecostal experiences myself and consider the work of the Holy Spirit an essential part of the Christian faith even though some denominations get a bit, shall we say, over enthusiastic?



Firstly the physical sign is the least part of the encounter. It is a side effect. The encounter with God is at a much deeper level. It is the cause, and when it happens you know God is the cause before anything does happen. (I hope I‘m making myself clear?). God doesn't show up just because you throw youself to the floor during charismatic worship.



The mind can play tricks. It easy to fake spiritual signs. Which probably explains why speaking in tongues is the most popular common manifestation. That is why the Bible teaches us to “Test the Spirits” and weigh up what Prophets say just in case our over imaginative minds are seeing God when it is not. I can post more on this but it may be more suitable for another forum as it is theological/ pastoral in nature rather than apologetics. It is enough to say that I have moved on from this kind of Pentecostalism. At the time I felt very ‘un-gifted’ but now I know it is because these gifts are not all God has for us. And I suspect there were a few bogus hyenas rolling about the aisle.



The “Bible Code” type stuff is of a different order. You have to seek that out with clever mathematics or a high powered computer or something. Numerology is a bit suspect. It only take a modicum of wisdom to discern the difference between a coincidence and a sign. However wisdom is in short supply especially when spirituality is measured in how many charisms (spiritual gifts) an individual displays.



For me there are definite encounters with God. Extra special events where God has intervened. My first real prayer of repentance when I was just going through the motions and then started to really mean what I was saying. The one real time in the Toronto business when God had more to say to me about the suffering in the world. Those points when I just knew I had the right idea for a presentation/ sermon or nativity play, or a point I was expounding in the small group was beyond my normal understanding. That moment of peace and quiet just between me and the Lord.



To summarize in turn, it may not be proof to you of God. But that is not the purpose of these times when God decides for a reason best known to Himself to show Himself to an individual. To be honest there a times when I look back and wonder if my mind was playing tricks. I could argue and deploy tricks of the mind to explain away these encounters if I wanted and dodge God’s draft orders. But then God doesn’t want to enslave me/ us. That is why God only provides evidence and not proof.

[Checkmate]

Hello, do you mind if I through my hat into the ring on this topic? I'm sure it was intended for familyof5, but I've read the post, and I appear to take a similar stance.

I think you are missing the point of Lost's post. I don't think that is your fault because such an encounter with God has not happened to you. I have had Pentecostal experiences myself and consider the work of the Holy Spirit an essential part of the Christian faith even though some denominations get a bit, shall we say, over enthusiastic?

So God decides to reveal himself to some people, and not to others? If it's not his fault, whose is it? Besides God, I can't think of anybody.

Firstly the physical sign is the least part of the encounter. It is a side effect. The encounter with God is at a much deeper level. It is the cause, and when it happens you know God is the cause before anything does happen. (I hope I‘m making myself clear?). God doesn't show up just because you throw youself to the floor during charismatic worship.

Wait a second, what you are saying is that God does not give any sort of physical sign of his presence, and that it is usually mental? That's what I gained from that part of your post.

The mind can play tricks. It easy to fake spiritual signs. Which probably explains why speaking in tongues is the most popular common manifestation. That is why the Bible teaches us to “Test the Spirits” and weigh up what Prophets say just in case our over imaginative minds are seeing God when it is not.

Hmm... how exactly do you tell what exactly is a spiritual experience and what is not? How can you tell the difference between if the mind is playing tricks, and if it's a true spiritual encounter? Seems nearly impossible to tell to me, due to the fact that the brain is such a complex organism.

I can post more on this but it may be more suitable for another forum as it is theological/ pastoral in nature rather than apologetics. It is enough to say that I have moved on from this kind of Pentecostalism. At the time I felt very ‘un-gifted’ but now I know it is because these gifts are not all God has for us. And I suspect there were a few bogus hyenas rolling about the aisle.

Ok then, you don't have to answer my question about the difference if you don't want to. Just something I was curious about is all.

The “Bible Code” type stuff is of a different order. You have to seek that out with clever mathematics or a high powered computer or something. Numerology is a bit suspect. It only take a modicum of wisdom to discern the difference between a coincidence and a sign. However wisdom is in short supply especially when spirituality is measured in how many charisms (spiritual gifts) an individual displays.

Hmm... how can you tell that the "Bible Code" is actually there, and not just something that can easily be attributed to coincidence? I'm not a pro on the subject, so I'm not going to pretend to be. Also, you seem to now be saying that signs are rather obvious, and people are just not "wise" enough to see these signs for what they are. Hmm... how can you tell that the "sign" is an actual sign, and not just your brain over-analyzing things?

For me there are definite encounters with God. Extra special events where God has intervened. My first real prayer of repentance when I was just going through the motions and then started to really mean what I was saying. The one real time in the Toronto business when God had more to say to me about the suffering in the world. Those points when I just knew I had the right idea for a presentation/ sermon or nativity play, or a point I was expounding in the small group was beyond my normal understanding. That moment of peace and quiet just between me and the Lord.

Hmm... I'm sure that it's due to the fact that I'm new, but I'm not exactly certain what you are saying here, so I won't comment.

To summarize in turn, it may not be proof to you of God. But that is not the purpose of these times when God decides for a reason best known to Himself to show Himself to an individual. To be honest there a times when I look back and wonder if my mind was playing tricks. I could argue and deploy tricks of the mind to explain away these encounters if I wanted and dodge God’s draft orders. But then God doesn’t want to enslave me/ us. That is why God only provides evidence and not proof.

Hmm... so then why do so many Atheists exist? Why doesn't God at least attempt to reveal himself to everybody? Sure, some people would just attribute it to your mind playing tricks, but there would be a lot more Christians, myself included, if God actually played a role in my life. Or just said something once every 25 years. I have never heard God say anything. Why does God choose specific people to talk to, and ignore others?

[/QUOTE]

[Lost]

Hello, do you mind if I through my hat into the ring on this topic? I'm sure it was intended for familyof5, but I've read the post, and I appear to take a similar stance.


So God decides to reveal himself to some people, and not to others? If it's not his fault, whose is it? Besides God, I can't think of anybody.





Wait a second, what you are saying is that God does not give any sort of physical sign of his presence, and that it is usually mental? That's what I gained from that part of your post.





Hmm... how exactly do you tell what exactly is a spiritual experience and what is not? How can you tell the difference between if the mind is playing tricks, and if it's a true spiritual encounter? Seems nearly impossible to tell to me, due to the fact that the brain is such a complex organism.



Ok then, you don't have to answer my question about the difference if you don't want to. Just something I was curious about is all.





Hmm... how can you tell that the "Bible Code" is actually there, and not just something that can easily be attributed to coincidence? I'm not a pro on the subject, so I'm not going to pretend to be. Also, you seem to now be saying that signs are rather obvious, and people are just not "wise" enough to see these signs for what they are. Hmm... how can you tell that the "sign" is an actual sign, and not just your brain over-analyzing things?



Hmm... I'm sure that it's due to the fact that I'm new, but I'm not exactly certain what you are saying here, so I won't comment.





Hmm... so then why do so many Atheists exist? Why doesn't God at least attempt to reveal himself to everybody? Sure, some people would just attribute it to your mind playing tricks, but there would be a lot more Christians, myself included, if God actually played a role in my life. Or just said something once every 25 years. I have never heard God say anything. Why does God choose specific people to talk to, and ignore others?

[/QUOTE]

Jesus said that if we obey him then he and his father will make their home in us.
This probably goes over your head but really it is a very very important statement for a christian.
I am not interested in why God does certain things when he does.
My job is to make sure I respond correctly to the experiences that I have had.
A lot is at stake here.
If you get it wrong and God is real then you are in quite a spot of trouble to say the least.
I am not willing to take that risk.
Experiecnes are personal and not much use to others.
Ask God for an experience.

[Lost]

In repose to family of fives response to Lost's post on this thread:
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...=1#post1750437


I think you are missing the point of Lost's post. I don't think that is your fault because such an encounter with God has not happened to you. I have had Pentecostal experiences myself and consider the work of the Holy Spirit an essential part of the Christian faith even though some denominations get a bit, shall we say, over enthusiastic?



Firstly the physical sign is the least part of the encounter. It is a side effect. The encounter with God is at a much deeper level. It is the cause, and when it happens you know God is the cause before anything does happen. (I hope I‘m making myself clear?). God doesn't show up just because you throw youself to the floor during charismatic worship.



The mind can play tricks. It easy to fake spiritual signs. Which probably explains why speaking in tongues is the most popular common manifestation. That is why the Bible teaches us to “Test the Spirits” and weigh up what Prophets say just in case our over imaginative minds are seeing God when it is not. I can post more on this but it may be more suitable for another forum as it is theological/ pastoral in nature rather than apologetics. It is enough to say that I have moved on from this kind of Pentecostalism. At the time I felt very ‘un-gifted’ but now I know it is because these gifts are not all God has for us. And I suspect there were a few bogus hyenas rolling about the aisle.



The “Bible Code” type stuff is of a different order. You have to seek that out with clever mathematics or a high powered computer or something. Numerology is a bit suspect. It only take a modicum of wisdom to discern the difference between a coincidence and a sign. However wisdom is in short supply especially when spirituality is measured in how many charisms (spiritual gifts) an individual displays.



For me there are definite encounters with God. Extra special events where God has intervened. My first real prayer of repentance when I was just going through the motions and then started to really mean what I was saying. The one real time in the Toronto business when God had more to say to me about the suffering in the world. Those points when I just knew I had the right idea for a presentation/ sermon or nativity play, or a point I was expounding in the small group was beyond my normal understanding. That moment of peace and quiet just between me and the Lord.



To summarize in turn, it may not be proof to you of God. But that is not the purpose of these times when God decides for a reason best known to Himself to show Himself to an individual. To be honest there a times when I look back and wonder if my mind was playing tricks. I could argue and deploy tricks of the mind to explain away these encounters if I wanted and dodge God’s draft orders. But then God doesn’t want to enslave me/ us. That is why God only provides evidence and not proof.

Thanks for those comments Midge.
There were some other strange things about that day I fell to my knees.
The pastor concerned was visiting from another state.
He was a bit bombastic - I don't warm too quickly to that style of person - some of the usa preachers who jump up and down yelling etc turn me off.
I didnt know it at the time but in the evening service he was going to be "slaying 'em in the Spirit" - not something I would have warmed to at all.
I would have just thought he was pushing 'em over :(
However what could I think after I had gone to the floor myself in the afternoon.
I guess I listened a bit more carefully that night without any negativity that I would have had.

[The Midge]

[QUOTE=Checkmate]Hello, do you mind if I through my hat into the ring on this topic? I'm sure it was intended for familyof5, but I've read the post, and I appear to take a similar stance.
[QUOTE]
You welcome. I didn't send a PM for that reason :)
[QUOTE=Checkmate]So God decides to reveal himself to some people, and not to others? If it's not his fault, whose is it? Besides God, I can't think of anybody.[QUOTE] I don't think there is an answer to this. An act of grace is a mystery. It all depends on an idviduals circumstances and how receptive or obedient to God's call they. God works on individuals not with production line formula .I do not mean gullible or susceptable.

[QUOTE=Checkmate]Wait a second, what you are saying is that God does not give any sort of physical sign of his presence, and that it is usually mental? That's what I gained from that part of your post.
[QUOTE] No. I mean the mental or rather spiritual encounter preceed the physical event e.g. such as knees giving out.

[QUOTE=Checkmate]Hmm... how exactly do you tell what exactly is a spiritual experience and what is not? How can you tell the difference between if the mind is playing tricks, and if it's a true spiritual encounter? Seems nearly impossible to tell to me, due to the fact that the brain is such a complex organism.
[QUOTE]
I will post later on this when I have found what I previously wrote. It is lenghty and based on biblical guidlines.

[QUOTE=Checkmate]Ok then, you don't have to answer my question about the difference if you don't want to. Just something I was curious about is all.





[QUOTE=Checkmate]Hmm... how can you tell that the "Bible Code" is actually there, and not just something that can easily be attributed to coincidence? I'm not a pro on the subject, so I'm not going to pretend to be. Also, you seem to now be saying that signs are rather obvious, and people are just not "wise" enough to see these signs for what they are. Hmm... how can you tell that the "sign" is an actual sign, and not just your brain over-analyzing things?

[QUOTE=Checkmate]Hmm... I'm sure that it's due to the fact that I'm new, but I'm not exactly certain what you are saying here, so I won't comment.
[QUOTE]
As it turns out it will be relevant to answer the above so I will. But I have to go out in a moment so can it wait till later?

[QUOTE=Checkmate]Hmm... so then why do so many Atheists exist? Why doesn't God at least attempt to reveal himself to everybody? Sure, some people would just attribute it to your mind playing tricks, but there would be a lot more Christians, myself included, if God actually played a role in my life. Or just said something once every 25 years. I have never heard God say anything. Why does God choose specific people to talk to, and ignore others?
[QUOTE] Revelation has many forms. We are talking about a special form that is, IMHO, primarily about deepning our spiritual nature rather than proving God exists.

I cannot prove if you have stopped your ears or God hasn't called directly because you are not ready for it. God is not a tame God pandering to our every whim.

[Checkmate]

Jesus said that if we obey him then he and his father will make their home in us.
This probably goes over your head but really it is a very very important statement for a christian.

Hmm, I think I get it. If we believe in Jesus and obey him, we get all this good stuff. The spiritual messages and all that? However, what about Christians who totally believed in God for several years, and ended up hearing and seeing nothing? I'm in that group. What exactly happened with them?

I am not interested in why God does certain things when he does.
My job is to make sure I respond correctly to the experiences that I have had.

Hmm... so even if God told you to stab your friend, you would do it without question? I mean, if you don't want to question God, what would stop you? Sorry if that's too offensive.

A lot is at stake here.
If you get it wrong and God is real then you are in quite a spot of trouble to say the least.

Very true. However if God is not real, you wasted all that time believing in a being that didn't exist. Of course, you won't have really any time to think about it. It's about a 50%/50% shot.

I am not willing to take that risk.
Experiecnes are personal and not much use to others.
Ask God for an experience.

And what if I don't receieve one? What then?

[Checkmate]

Hello, do you mind if I through my hat into the ring on this topic? I'm sure it was intended for familyof5, but I've read the post, and I appear to take a similar stance.

You welcome. I didn't send a PM for that reason :)

Ok then.

So God decides to reveal himself to some people, and not to others? If it's not his fault, whose is it? Besides God, I can't think of anybody.

[I don't think there is an answer to this. An act of grace is a mystery. It all depends on an idviduals circumstances and how receptive or obedient to God's call they. God works on individuals not with production line formula .I do not mean gullible or susceptable.

Hmm... ok then. A fair enough answer I suppose.

Wait a second, what you are saying is that God does not give any sort of physical sign of his presence, and that it is usually mental? That's what I gained from that part of your post.

No. I mean the mental or rather spiritual encounter preceed the physical event e.g. such as knees giving out.

Ah, ok then. That makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.

Hmm... how exactly do you tell what exactly is a spiritual experience and what is not? How can you tell the difference between if the mind is playing tricks, and if it's a true spiritual encounter? Seems nearly impossible to tell to me, due to the fact that the brain is such a complex organism.

I will post later on this when I have found what I previously wrote. It is lenghty and based on biblical guidlines.

Ah, ok then. I'll wait for that post, quite eagerly.

[QUOTE=Checkmate]Ok then, you don't have to answer my question about the difference if you don't want to. Just something I was curious about is all.

Hmm... how can you tell that the "Bible Code" is actually there, and not just something that can easily be attributed to coincidence? I'm not a pro on the subject, so I'm not going to pretend to be. Also, you seem to now be saying that signs are rather obvious, and people are just not "wise" enough to see these signs for what they are. Hmm... how can you tell that the "sign" is an actual sign, and not just your brain over-analyzing things?

Hmm... I'm sure that it's due to the fact that I'm new, but I'm not exactly certain what you are saying here, so I won't comment.

As it turns out it will be relevant to answer the above so I will. But I have to go out in a moment so can it wait till later?

Of course, answer it whenever you can't. I'm not in any hurry, though I will go to sleep eventually.

Hmm... so then why do so many Atheists exist? Why doesn't God at least attempt to reveal himself to everybody? Sure, some people would just attribute it to your mind playing tricks, but there would be a lot more Christians, myself included, if God actually played a role in my life. Or just said something once every 25 years. I have never heard God say anything. Why does God choose specific people to talk to, and ignore others?

Revelation has many forms. We are talking about a special form that is, IMHO, primarily about deepning our spiritual nature rather than proving God exists.

Humm... I think I understand.

[I cannot prove if you have stopped your ears or God hasn't called directly because you are not ready for it. God is not a tame God pandering to our every whim.

Hmm... so you don't believe that God doesn't really answer prayer either? Isn't that "pandering to our every whim"?

[Lost]

Hmm, I think I get it. If we believe in Jesus and obey him, we get all this good stuff. The spiritual messages and all that? However, what about Christians who totally believed in God for several years, and ended up hearing and seeing nothing? I'm in that group. What exactly happened with them?



Hmm... so even if God told you to stab your friend, you would do it without question? I mean, if you don't want to question God, what would stop you? Sorry if that's too offensive.



Very true. However if God is not real, you wasted all that time believing in a being that didn't exist. Of course, you won't have really any time to think about it. It's about a 50%/50% shot.



And what if I don't receieve one? What then?

I know some christians that seem to better christians than me who dont seem to have had any special experiences.
They always seemed to have way more faith than me - they dont come here and argue about stuff - I told them how opposed to christianity I was here and they werent even very interested :(
Beats me - some people just seem to thrive on very little - I question stuff way too much :)
God has his own reasons for doing stuff the way he does - dont ask me I dont have a clue why it is that way.
One thing I do know - if you really want to find God - really I mean - more than anything else in the world - you will find him and it wont be just that you convinced yourself.
Thats all I can say really.

[Checkmate]

One thing I do know - if you really want to find God - really I mean - more than anything else in the world - you will find him and it wont be just that you convinced yourself.

An interesting post, but this argument rather irks me, and to me appears to be a selfish argument. I'll show you by rephrasing it.

" Hey, if you don't believing in God, then you should do what I did. Just believe in him like ME, with everything you can muster, than you will obviously find him, because I DID. If you don't you obviously aren't trying hard enough, try to be more LIKE ME."

[timspong]

I was born into a US charismatic church and firmly believed in it all. However, as I grew in Christ I realised that most charismatics are very poor bible students and rely far too heavily on personal experience and perceived encounters with the Holy Ghost rather than sound biblical teaching. Bible study is a crucial factor in discernment and lack there of causes a huge breach in our spiritual defences.

You only have to look at TBN to seen the unbiblical garbage that is being preached solely to please the viewing audience by giving the fuzzy nice messages that the viewers want to hear. Preachers think they are being lead by the Holy Spirit whereas in reality they are driven by ego, and possibly worse.

God blessed me with a tragedy that swept away the entire doctrinal house that was built on the sand and I had to start again from scratch. The first thing I realised was most of my charismatic experiences where nothing more than a powerful mass delusion. I may modify my view as my rebellion subsides, but that is how I feel right now.

In my experience, charismatic phenomena are either:

1. The work of the Holy Spirit
2. The work of Satan
3. Delusion based on powerful suggestion
4. Ego driven pretence

IMO most incidences are 4 & 3 and the least is number 1.

[Lost]

I was born into a US charismatic church and firmly believed in it all. However, as I grew in Christ I realised that most charismatics are very poor bible students and rely far too heavily on personal experience and perceived encounters with the Holy Ghost rather than sound biblical teaching. Bible study is a crucial factor in discernment and lack there of causes a huge breach in our spiritual defences.

You only have to look at TBN to seen the unbiblical garbage that is being preached solely to please the viewing audience by giving the fuzzy nice messages that the viewers want to hear. Preachers think they are being lead by the Holy Spirit whereas in reality they are driven by ego, and possibly worse.

God blessed me with a tragedy that swept away the entire doctrinal house that was built on the sand and I had to start again from scratch. The first thing I realised was most of my charismatic experiences where nothing more than a powerful mass delusion. I may modify my view as my rebellion subsides, but that is how I feel right now.

In my experience, charismatic phenomena are either:

1. The work of the Holy Spirit
2. The work of Satan
3. Delusion based on powerful suggestion
4. Ego driven pretence

IMO most incidences are 4 & 3 and the least is number 1.

The trick is not to throw the baby out with the bathwater I guess.
Ultimately the only thing that matters is the relationship between ourselves and God - that is all we will have to account for - and that depends on how we relate to those around us + some other stuff.
So many different views of what's written in the bible - glad I don't have to decipher it all - I don't have enuf time left :)

[The Midge]

Hmm... so you don't believe that God doesn't really answer prayer either? Isn't that "pandering to our every whim"?

God answers prayer alright. But not always in the way we want Him to.

[The Midge]

This is the post I promised. I forgot it was primarily about prophecy (which often accompanies these occasions). However in many examples you can substitute "Prophet" for leadership. Stuff about orderly worship is applicable across the board. Long post alert!

Testing Prophets.




2Pe 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

Peter warns about false prophets because they can do so much damage. It is alarming that much of the Charismatic Movement is lax and complacent about the issue. Here follows my personal guide to testing prophecy. Please feel free to comment, add to, refine or disagree!

• Are the prophecies true?
  Sometimes the obvious has to be stated. If a prophetic word (I.e. The world is going to end on the 8th of July) doesn’t turn out to be true (The world is still here on the 9th July) it didn’t come from God.
  
  Dt 18:21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?” If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.
  
  
• Are the prophecies contrary to the teaching of the bible?
  God isn’t going to contradict His word either in fact or character. So a prophecy should tally with the Bible. If it doesn’t then the prophecy should be rejected. The text of the Bible should be the final authority.
  
  

Dt 13:1 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, Dt 13:2 and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” Dt 13:3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.
Dt 13:4 It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him.


1Co 12:3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

• Are prophecies vague and un-provable?
  Isa 8:19 When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?
  
  One of the tricks of horoscope writers is to be so vague and imprecise that it is nearly impossible for a prediction not to come true. “You will meet someone important today” they may say. (note, this is not equivalent to general truths such as “God Loves you” if that is what someone really needs to hear comforting words during counseling for example but things like “God is going to do great things in this place”. Yeah, what?)
  
  4. Does the prophet live a life consistent with Christian teaching?
  A true servant of God should live a life consistent with their calling. If not their relationship with God cannot be close enough to hear His words. When a prophet is exposed for something like an ongoing affair or having their fingers in the collection plate then their words should be reassessed.Jer 23:11 “Both prophet and priest are godless;
  Even in my temple I find their wickedness,”
  declares the LORD.
  Jer 23:12 “Therefore their path will become slippery;
  they will be banished to darkness
  and there they will fall.
  I will bring disaster on them
  in the year they are punished,”
  declares the LORD.

5. Do they state the obvious?
Indicative only. “The LORD says ‘I Love my people’!” “The sun will rise tomorrow, thus says the Lord” are both fine and true… but why does God need to send a prophet to tell us? Are such statements motivated by the Spirit wishing to remind us of the basics or someone’s desire to appear more important and gifted than they are?
IMO self evident truths are fine for a sermon, testimony or time of sharing but need not be given the gloss of being a prophecy


6. Does the prophet only say nice things in order to engender a warm fuzzy feeling?

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

In this passage Jeremiah (The misery guts of the prophets who had a reputation for bringing bad news) speaks against the false prophets who are telling the rulers that everything is OK and no harm will come to them. They were shortly to be exiled. Good news is nice but not if we need to hear what our real condition and predicament is.

Jer 23:16 This is what the LORD Almighty says:
“Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you;
they fill you with false hopes.
They speak visions from their own minds,
not from the mouth of the LORD.
Jer 23:17 They keep saying to those who despise me,
‘The LORD says: You will have peace.’
And to all who follow the stubbornness of their hearts
they say, ‘No harm will come to you.’
<Snip>
Jer 23:21 I did not send these prophets,
yet they have run with their message;
I did not speak to them,
yet they have prophesied.
Jer 23:22 But if they had stood in my council,
they would have proclaimed my words to my people
and would have turned them from their evil ways
and from their evil deeds.



7. Is the meeting orderly? Are the leaders whipping up the hype?
Paul obviously did not see the need for hype and commanded the Corinthian Churcch to ensure that their services and prophecy was carried out in an orderly fashion.

1Co 14:29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.

8. Is the prophet accountable to anyone? Is the prophet considered to be an anointed one speaking the word of God directly and beyond challenge or approach?
IMHO no one should be beyond question. All are imperfect and should be open to correction when they go wrong.

Paul tells the leaders of the Corinthian church to carefully weigh up the words of prophets. An Eldership or Parish Church Council can have a valuable roll to play in keeping prophetic church leaders close to God.

9. Is the prophet dependent on giving spectacular prophecies for their reputation or status?
Indicative only. The temptation to perform for the audience is never far away. To make them love you. Give them what they want.



10. Are the prophecies only aimed at building up the prophets own ministry, support team or church or do they serve the wider church?
I get suspicious about prophecies that conveniently put decisions above question.
It may be tempting for leaders to use “prophecy” to put their own ideas above question and trick their followers for supporting their own ideas and pet projects. Christ gave us a model of servant leadership in which there is no room for deceitful manipulation.

11. Is the prophecy linked to financial donations?
Indicative only. When a prophet becomes dependent on making living or money from giving prophesies there is added temptation to deliver what the punters want. Temptation to embellish or add words may not be far away.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

12. Are the prophecies valued and respected?
We are talking about God revealing a special message or truth. Such words should not be thrown about like trinkets at a carnival. Signs that a church is valuing prophecies may be keeping of records, following up the recipients to see where the prophecy has led them. This also helps check out the veracity of the prophecy.

1Jn 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.



13. What happens when the prophet gets things wrong?
Although I would not advocate stoning, if this is not a matter for some kind of loving church discipline then the ministry could be brought into disrepute. False prophecy can be especially damaging because it makes God out to be a liar. The church has to deal with the consequences of where people have been led astray and repair any damage that may have been caused.
If you cannot rely on the word of a “prophet” then perhaps it is better they do not speak. For if false prophets cry “wolf” will the church be willing to listen to anyone when God really does speak?

Jer 23:28 Let the prophet who has a dream tell his dream, but let the one who has my word speak it faithfully. For what has straw to do with grain?” declares the LORD.
Jer 23:29 “Is not my word like fire,” declares the LORD, “and like a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces?
Jer 23:30 “Therefore,” declares the LORD, “I am against the prophets who steal from one another words supposedly from me.
Jer 23:31 Yes,” declares the LORD, “I am against the prophets who wag their own tongues and yet declare, ‘The LORD declares.’
Jer 23:32 Indeed, I am against those who prophesy false dreams,” declares the LORD. “They tell them and lead my people astray with their reckless lies, yet I did not send or appoint them. They do not benefit these people in the least,” declares the LORD.

[zorathruster]

God answers prayer alright. But not always in the way we want Him to.

This is a dodge. There is no falsification criteria. By asserting that anything that happens, both outcomes as a valid answer means you cannot distinguish between a prayer that is answered and one that is not answered. Since you cannot distinguish between answered and non-answered prayer, you are not asserting any valid point.

[LGM]

How amusing that god’s “magical spirit” is causing countless Pentecostals to writhe around on the floor, spout all kinds of gibberish, laugh uncontrollably, become suddenly weak in the knees, lose bladder control, etc., ad nausea…ALWAYS in their churches, ALWAYS in front of an audience of their peers, and ALWAYS as PROOF of their possession of the one true god’s magical spirit…

Isn’t it interesting that god’s “magical spirit”, never causes a Pentecostal to suddenly understand a new breakthrough cure for breast cancer, and start dictating it using clear medical terminology to their congregation? Or perhaps a new breakthrough in a clean, renewable energy source in engineering terminology? Or new breakthroughs in transportation or agriculture or foreign policy or even tax law, in those specific technical languages? Things that would show tremendous LOVE for their neighbors... Hmmm…I wonder why? I wonder why it’s always simply gibberish and laughter and rolling around on the floor like children on the playground?

It would seem the magical holy spirit of the great omnipotent, omniscient god of the universe, can only make certain people weak in the knees and fall to the ground in the churches of ONE specific brand of Christianity, WHERE it is taken as PROOF of pious fidelity.



Could there possibly be a better and more hilarious example of what psychotic hyper-religiosity and the peer pressure of a cult can do to people?

Thou shalt not bear false witness, unless you're doing it to impress others in my name...is what the commandment sez if you read between the lines...

But thankfully for Lost, when he finally gets to “stand” before this “one true god”, after he is dead and his legs are decomposing in his grave, he will be able to proudly proclaim:

“Well Lord, I got weak in the knees that one time in church! And then I told a bunch of people about it! Aren’t you proud of your faithful servant?!?”.

I don’t know whether to smirk or vomit.