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Abiogenesis split from Death thread

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  • #31
    Originally posted by element771 View Post
    Done in the 50's.

    The ribosyme is not necessary for an RNA world hypothesis, it just supports it.

    So we had structures of DNA and RNA in the 50s and, by your own account, this is what was needed for a coherent hypothesis. The Miller Urey experiment that was designed to see if the building blocks could be formed in the primordial soup...also in the 50's.

    Yet, abiogenesis field is young.
    Yes it is, even though we believe in a ten year difference. Yes the double helix was discovered in 1953, but the majority of the research that described the RNA/DNA came later as cited below.

    Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Watson


    James Dewey Watson (born April 6, 1928) is an American molecular biologist, geneticist and zoologist, best known as one of the co-discoverers of the structure of DNA in 1953 with Francis Crick. Watson, Crick, and Maurice Wilkins were awarded the 1962 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine "for their discoveries concerning the molecular structure of nucleic acids and its significance for information transfer in living material".

    Watson earned degrees at the University of Chicago (B.S., 1947) and Indiana University (Ph.D., 1950). Following a post-doctoral year at the University of Copenhagen with Herman Kalckar and Ole Maaloe, later Watson worked at the University of Cambridge's Cavendish Laboratory in England, where he first met his future collaborator and friend Francis Crick.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_code



    Nirenberg MW, Matthaei JH (Oct 1961). "The dependence of cell-free protein synthesis in E. coli upon naturally occurring or synthetic polyribonucleotides". Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America. 47 (10): 1588–602. Bibcode:1961PNAS...47.1588N. doi:10.1073/pnas.47.10.1588. PMC 223178Freely accessible. PMID 14479932.

    Gardner RS, Wahba AJ, Basilio C, Miller RS, Lengyel P, Speyer JF (Dec 1962). "Synthetic polynucleotides and the amino acid code. VII". Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America. 48 (12): 2087–94. Bibcode:1962PNAS...48.2087G. doi:10.1073/pnas.48.12.2087. PMC 221128Freely accessible. PMID 13946552.

    Wahba AJ, Gardner RS, Basilio C, Miller RS, Speyer JF, Lengyel P (Jan 1963). "Synthetic polynucleotides and the amino acid code. VIII". Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America. 49 (1): 116–22. Bibcode:1963PNAS...49..116W. doi:10.1073/pnas.49.1.116. PMC 300638Freely accessible. PMID 13998282.

    "The Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine 1959" (Press release). The Royal Swedish Academy of Science. 1959. Retrieved 2010-02-27. The Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine 1959 was awarded jointly to Severo Ochoa and Arthur Kornberg 'for their discovery of the mechanisms in the biological synthesis of ribonucleic acid and deoxyribonucleic acid'.

    Nirenberg M, Leder P, Bernfield M, Brimacombe R, Trupin J, Rottman F, O'Neal C (May 1965). "RNA codewords and protein synthesis, VII. On the general nature of the RNA code". Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America. 53 (5): 1161–8.

    Bibcode:1965PNAS...53.1161N. doi:10.1073/pnas.53.5.1161. PMC 301388Freely accessible. PMID 5330357.
    Jump up ^ "The Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine 1968" (Press release). The Royal Swedish Academy of Science. 1968. Retrieved 2010-02-27. The Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine 1968 was awarded jointly to Robert W. Holley, Har Gobind Khorana and Marshall W. Nirenberg 'for their interpretation of the genetic code and its function in protein synthesis'.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Can you cite literature before 1960 that proposes a falsifiable a specific falsifiable hypothesis for abiogenesis?
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 01-11-2017, 06:39 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      Yes it is, even though we believe in a ten year difference. Yes the double helix was discovered in 1953, but the majority of the research that described the RNA/DNA came later as cited below.

      Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Watson


      James Dewey Watson (born April 6, 1928) is an American molecular biologist, geneticist and zoologist, best known as one of the co-discoverers of the structure of DNA in 1953 with Francis Crick. Watson, Crick, and Maurice Wilkins were awarded the 1962 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine "for their discoveries concerning the molecular structure of nucleic acids and its significance for information transfer in living material".

      Watson earned degrees at the University of Chicago (B.S., 1947) and Indiana University (Ph.D., 1950). Following a post-doctoral year at the University of Copenhagen with Herman Kalckar and Ole Maaloe, later Watson worked at the University of Cambridge's Cavendish Laboratory in England, where he first met his future collaborator and friend Francis Crick.

      © Copyright Original Source



      Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_code



      Nirenberg MW, Matthaei JH (Oct 1961). "The dependence of cell-free protein synthesis in E. coli upon naturally occurring or synthetic polyribonucleotides". Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America. 47 (10): 1588–602. Bibcode:1961PNAS...47.1588N. doi:10.1073/pnas.47.10.1588. PMC 223178Freely accessible. PMID 14479932.

      Gardner RS, Wahba AJ, Basilio C, Miller RS, Lengyel P, Speyer JF (Dec 1962). "Synthetic polynucleotides and the amino acid code. VII". Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America. 48 (12): 2087–94. Bibcode:1962PNAS...48.2087G. doi:10.1073/pnas.48.12.2087. PMC 221128Freely accessible. PMID 13946552.

      Wahba AJ, Gardner RS, Basilio C, Miller RS, Speyer JF, Lengyel P (Jan 1963). "Synthetic polynucleotides and the amino acid code. VIII". Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America. 49 (1): 116–22. Bibcode:1963PNAS...49..116W. doi:10.1073/pnas.49.1.116. PMC 300638Freely accessible. PMID 13998282.

      "The Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine 1959" (Press release). The Royal Swedish Academy of Science. 1959. Retrieved 2010-02-27. The Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine 1959 was awarded jointly to Severo Ochoa and Arthur Kornberg 'for their discovery of the mechanisms in the biological synthesis of ribonucleic acid and deoxyribonucleic acid'.

      Nirenberg M, Leder P, Bernfield M, Brimacombe R, Trupin J, Rottman F, O'Neal C (May 1965). "RNA codewords and protein synthesis, VII. On the general nature of the RNA code". Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America. 53 (5): 1161–8.

      Bibcode:1965PNAS...53.1161N. doi:10.1073/pnas.53.5.1161. PMC 301388Freely accessible. PMID 5330357.
      Jump up ^ "The Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine 1968" (Press release). The Royal Swedish Academy of Science. 1968. Retrieved 2010-02-27. The Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine 1968 was awarded jointly to Robert W. Holley, Har Gobind Khorana and Marshall W. Nirenberg 'for their interpretation of the genetic code and its function in protein synthesis'.

      © Copyright Original Source



      Can you cite literature before 1960 that proposes a falsifiable a specific falsifiable hypothesis for abiogenesis?
      1. You haven't cited anything in the literature that supports your claim. A wiki page with a list of publications that you don't understand doesn't count. If you don't agree, pick one and I'll post it to discuss it in detail. This is well within my field of expertise.

      2. You can't be this ignorant. You do realize that the Nobel prize is awarded well after the discoveries are made.

      The Urey miller experiment offered support for the hypothesis that amino acids could form spontsneously under conditions that were thought to be present when life first arose. They found 3 for sure using chromatography (glycine, a-alanine, b-alanine) and saw two faint spots for two others. Asp being one of them. If amino acids could form, the hypothesis that primitive proteins could also form was also supported.
      Last edited by element771; 01-11-2017, 09:33 PM.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by element771 View Post
        The Urey miller experiment offered support for the hypothesis that amino acids could form spontsneously under conditions that were thought to be present when life first arose. They found 3 for sure using chromatography (glycine, a-alanine, b-alanine) and saw two faint spots for two others. Asp being one of them. If amino acids could form, the hypothesis that primitive proteins could also form was also supported.
        No coherent hypothesis was proposed based on the Urey - Miller experiment that could falsify abiogenesis. I asked for a specific falsifiable hypothesis proposed in the literature before the 1960's. You have not provided that. An experiment is a positive step, but it is not a hypothesis. I proved mine, put up or air-ball.
        Last edited by shunyadragon; 01-12-2017, 02:59 PM.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          No coherent hypothesis was proposed based on the Urey - Miller experiment that could falsify abiogenesis. I asked for a specific falsifiable hypothesis proposed in the literature before the 1960's. You have not provided that. An experiment is a positive step, but it is not a hypothesis. I proved mine, put up or air-ball.
          IF AMINO ACIDS COULD NOT FORM UNDER THOSE CONDITIONS THEN THE HYPOTHESIS THAT SPONTANEOUS AMINO ACID FORMATION WAS A PRECURSOR FOR ABIOGENESIS WOULD BE FALSIFIED.

          Are you really this ignorant regarding science?!?

          You don't wait to form a hypothesis until you do an experiment. If there is no hypothesis, then why do the experiment?!?

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by element771 View Post
            IF AMINO ACIDS COULD NOT FORM UNDER THOSE CONDITIONS THEN THE HYPOTHESIS THAT SPONTANEOUS AMINO ACID FORMATION WAS A PRECURSOR FOR ABIOGENESIS WOULD BE FALSIFIED.

            Are you really this ignorant regarding science?!?

            You don't wait to form a hypothesis until you do an experiment. If there is no hypothesis, then why do the experiment?!?
            The experiment hypothesis only involved the formation of amino acids, and not a coherent abiogenesis hypothesis for the actual formation of primitive life.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              The experiment hypothesis only involved the formation of amino acids, and not a coherent abiogenesis hypothesis for the actual formation of primitive life.
              You really have no idea how science is done do you?

              By your logic, the ribozyme only showed that catalytic RNAs exist and not a coherent abiogenesis hypothesis for the actual formation for primitive life.

              What reason is it important to show amino acids can form spontaneously under primordial conditions?

              what specifically is the motivation behind the experiment? What inferences can they draw from showing that amino acids can spontaneously form under these conditions?

              If you ever published a peer reviewed paper, you would know that an important part is discussing the implications of your findings in a larger context.

              I guess you would never encounter that because you surf websites instead of reading the primary literature nor have you ever published anything under a peer review system.

              Comment

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