Soul Sleep, ECT, Annihilation: Are the dead conscious or not?

[Timothy]

Well do you not agree that the soul along with the body dies in the Gehenna fire?

How do you get this from what I posted? I absolute believe that soul and the body both die (are destroyed, just as Jesus said) in Gehenna.

What does not die is their worm (singular). While we do not agree, it is nevertheless my view it is "their worm" which does not die, is the consciousness of the dead soul. This is what I understand. You don't, that is your problem, not mine.
The word both in the Hebrew and Jesus citing as written in the Greek are both singular "worm." The "their" is plural. Each dead soul, their worm does not die. Hence, they suffer for all eternity. My view. Not yours. You do not have to agree. It does not change the text.

You seem to think that "the worm" is the persons soul. It is not.

Jesus death for sin was completed before He physically died (John 19:28). Jesus suffered on the cross for sins, shedding the blood of His soul. Hence, paying in full for our sins. ". . . My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? . . . But I [am] a worm, and no man; . . ." Psalm 22:1, 6, Jesus paying for our sins on the cross, paying in full (John 19:30).

You are saying that Jesus died before Jesus died. That doesn't work for anyone. Why don't you just accept the plain meaning of the words in scripture, that the wages of sin is death, we owe the penalty for our sins, Christ took our sins from us, and His death on the cross pays for our sins in full? This way you don't have to claim that the soul stays alive in torment when the soul dies, souls are eternal fireproof worms, and Jesus died before Jesus died.

[37818]

How do you get this from what I posted? I absolute believe that soul and the body both die (are destroyed, just as Jesus said) in Gehenna.

There is a difference between the soul being dead, and the soul not existing in any form. I believe in the mortality of the human soul. And immortality of the human soul which has eternal life. I do not believe the dead soul ceases to be a soul, a dead soul.

You seem to think that "the worm" is the persons soul. It is not.

Regardless, the term "their worm never dies" refers to the eternal consciousness of the dead soul. Prove it does not. Jesus' soul died on the cross, before He physically dead (His soul again alive and leaves the body).

You are saying that Jesus died before Jesus died.

No. Death of the body and death of the soul are two different deaths. Jesus taught this! ". . . fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: . . . " -- Matthew 10:28.

. . .
That doesn't work for anyone. Why don't you just accept the plain meaning of the words in scripture, . . .

Speak for yourself, ". . . fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: . . . " -- Matthew 10:28.

. . .that the wages of sin is death, we owe the penalty for our sins, Christ took our sins from us, and His death on the cross pays for our sins in full? This way you don't have to claim that the soul stays alive in torment when the soul dies, souls are eternal fireproof worms, and Jesus died before Jesus died.

I do not believe in the immortality of the human soul apart from salvation (Romans 6:23).

[JohnnyP]

I'm gonna repost this here from The Honest Atheist? thread, for any further discussion about it so the topic doesn't derail some other threads.

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The Bible says that after we die, we will stand in judgment before God (Hebrews 9:27). There is no purgatory or "second chance".

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

The purpose here is to say that Jesus doesn't have to physically die over and over again for the sins of many, like sacrificing an animal over and over every year. The focus is on a general idea of most men dying a physical death once, it's not meant to be a detailed description of exactly what happens after death or to say there are no exceptions: it's not a hard rule that all men die once, have no activity, and then go into the Great Judgment.

For example Moses and Elijah had activity after death visiting Jesus in the Transfiguration. Saints in Revelation 20:6 don't even have to go the Great Judgment. And what happened to Lazarus, did he live forever or did he die a second time?

Of course I could just as easily argue that the judgment refers to judging if men are going to Hades/Purgatory (Rich Man) or Paradise/Abraham's Bosom (Lazarus), not to the Great Judgment, but you get the idea.

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Specifically about a biblical Purgatory (not really to do with the RCC tradition of it):

1 Peter 3:18-21 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient,

...when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

For some reason people get the idea Jesus is preaching to angels that came down and took wives in Noah's day from Genesis 6:2, probably from Jude 1:6. But it's not relating spirits in prison to angels. That's wildly random anyway if you think about it, we're talking about salvation of men and out of nowhere comes this bit about angels in Noah's day.

Actually, it's saying that by his death Jesus went to save spirits in Hades, and that salvation is like coming up out of the water in resurrection with Jesus. Thus it draws our attention to Hades being like underwater, and salvation coming out of it. Which then leads us to Jesus comparing his death to Jonah's being in the "Hades" of the fish. Jonah had been disobedient to God and stuck in a prison, why would Jesus have to go somewhere like that if he wasn't disobedient? Well, God's Word released Jonah from the fish:

DISOBEDIENCE IN LIFE

Jonah 1:3 But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD, and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD.

REPENTANCE IN HADES

Jonah 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

GATES OF HADES OPENED

Jonah 2:10 And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

So the fish as Hades here is actually symbolic of the Serpent, where of course disobedient men are cursed to be dust in death, and he is cursed to swallow them up, like the fish swallowed Jonah:

Genesis 3:19 ...for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Genesis 3:14 ...upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Finally, we can see at the Great Judgment the dead come from two places, the Sea and Hades:

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Again relating to the story of Jonah, if the fish didn't come along he'd remain in the water, symbolically the Sea/Abyss/Bottomless Pit, and just die in his sins. I'd relate these dead in the Sea to perhaps those damned for the Unpardonable Sin, they don't have a second chance to be forgiven in the afterlife.

Whereas Jonah was saved by the fish as Hades, the second chance, where if Jonah had not repented he'd have stayed in the fish and the sea and died anyway, symbolically, remaining in Hades and the Sea which has now turned into the Lake of Fire. Which I simply view as non-existence, no eternal torment.

As a side topic and to anticipate any disagreement:

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

If we ask, how can Jesus go to Hades when he's going to be in Paradise?

1. Do we maintain that 3 days/nights means a literal 72 hours, or only a portion of it? Could Jesus go to Paradise then to Hades?
2. If Jesus is God, at what point after his life as a man can he be omnipresent?

Anyway, I'd conclude that there is more biblical evidence of Purgatory than not, even though many Protestants just see any notion of it as a Catholic thing and dismiss it as such.

[Timothy]

There is a difference between the soul being dead, and the soul not existing in any form. I believe in the mortality of the human soul. And immortality of the human soul which has eternal life. I do not believe the dead soul ceases to be a soul, a dead soul.



Regardless, the term "their worm never dies" refers to the eternal consciousness of the dead soul. Prove it does not. Jesus' soul died on the cross, before He physically dead (His soul again alive and leaves the body).

No. Death of the body and death of the soul are two different deaths. Jesus taught this! ". . . fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: . . . " -- Matthew 10:28.Speak for yourself, ". . . fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: . . . " -- Matthew 10:28.

I do not believe in the immortality of the human soul apart from salvation (Romans 6:23).

I do not understand what it is that you believe. You seem to be saying one thing and then saying the exact opposite of what you previously said. You say that that you do not believe in the immortality of the human soul apart from salvation, yet you argue for the eternal consciousness of a "dead soul".

I believe that the wages of sin is death, not eternal conscious torment in hell. You need to give more thought to what it is that you actually believe. It seems like you don't believe in eternal conscious torment in hell, but are afraid to come out and say so.

[37818]

I do not understand what it is that you believe. You seem to be saying one thing and then saying the exact opposite of what you previously said. You say that that you do not believe in the immortality of the human soul apart from salvation, yet you argue for the eternal consciousness of a "dead soul".

Yes. That is exactly what I understand.

I believe that the wages of sin is death, not eternal conscious torment in hell. You need to give more thought to what it is that you actually believe. It seems like you don't believe in eternal conscious torment in hell, but are afraid to come out and say so.

Read what Jesus said again, ". . . fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." -- Matthew 10:28.
So it is my understanding that soul does not die until the second death. Where both the body and soul are "destroyed." Now a dead body does not merely upon death cease to be a body. And so it is my understanding in the "destroying" of the body and soul, that is, that death, they do not cease being a dead body and dead soul. And it is what is called "their worm" which is said to not to die (Mark 9:48). And in the Revelation it says, ". . . the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, . . ." -- Revelation 14:11.

[Timothy]

Yes. That is exactly what I understand.


Read what Jesus said again, ". . . fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." -- Matthew 10:28.
So it is my understanding that soul does not die until the second death. Where both the body and soul are "destroyed." Now a dead body does not merely upon death cease to be a body. And so it is my understanding in the "destroying" of the body and soul, that is, that death, they do not cease being a dead body and dead soul. And it is what is called "their worm" which is said to not to die (Mark 9:48). And in the Revelation it says, ". . . the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, . . ." -- Revelation 14:11.

I have read what Jesus said in Matthew 10:28 many times. ". . . fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Don't forget the second part of that verse, they are destroyed in Gehenna. This doesn't mean that they remain undestroyed forever in Gehenna.

[37818]

I have read what Jesus said in Matthew 10:28 many times. ". . . fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Don't forget the second part of that verse, they are destroyed in Gehenna. This doesn't mean that they remain undestroyed forever in Gehenna.

We have gone in a circle here. I agree that ". . . destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna]" that both the body and soul are dead. I think the key difference our views, on this one point, you seem to take "destroy" to mean "cease to exist."

An image of destoryed cars: smashed-cars-9015742.jpg

[Timothy]

We have gone in a circle here. I agree that ". . . destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna]" that both the body and soul are dead. I think the key difference our views, on this one point, you seem to take "destroy" to mean "cease to exist."

An image of destoryed cars: [ATTACH=CONFIG]2527[/ATTACH]

Those cars are not completely destroyed as the Bible says that the wicked will be. When they are melted down into iron ingots, then you can say that the cars have been destroyed. That yellow car is in better shape than the car I drove in college.

[37818]

Those cars are not completely destroyed as the Bible says that the wicked will be. When they are melted down into iron ingots, then you can say that the cars have been destroyed. That yellow car is in better shape than the car I drove in college.

[Timothy]

As you know, the Bible says that the wicked will be destroyed just as chaff is destroyed when it is burnt up. The word picture that the Bible uses for destruction is complete destruction, not a car wreck as your illustration supposes.

[37818]

As you know, the Bible says that the wicked will be destroyed just as chaff is destroyed when it is burnt up. The word picture that the Bible uses for destruction is complete destruction, not a car wreck as your illustration supposes.

". . . the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, . . ." -- Revelation 14:11.

[Timothy]

". . . the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, . . ." -- Revelation 14:11.

Yep. That's what the Book of Revelation says. Even that does not say that their torment goes on forever (just the smoke) or that their restless days and nights last forever.
Is that really why you believe that the wicked will be tormented alive forever in hell instead of being totally destroyed as the Bible says?

[37818]

Yep. That's what the Book of Revelation says. Even that does not say that their torment goes on forever (just the smoke) or that their restless days and nights last forever.
Is that really why you believe that the wicked will be tormented alive forever in hell instead of being totally destroyed as the Bible says?

The word of God does not.

[Timothy]

The word of God does not.

The word of God does not what?

Are you saying that the Bible does not say that the wicked will be destroyed?
Psalm 37:38, Psalm 145:20, Psalm 37:20, Proverbs 14:11, Psalm 94:23, Psalm 73:19, Philippians 3:19, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, 2 Peter 2:3, 12

The Bible says over and over that the wicked will be destroyed, but never once says that the wicked will be preserved alive forever and set on fire so that they can burn alive forever.

[37818]

The word of God does not what?

Are you saying that the Bible does not say that the wicked will be destroyed?
Psalm 37:38, Psalm 145:20, Psalm 37:20, Proverbs 14:11, Psalm 94:23, Psalm 73:19, Philippians 3:19, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, 2 Peter 2:3, 12

The Bible says over and over that the wicked will be destroyed, but never once says that the wicked will be preserved alive forever and set on fire so that they can burn alive forever.

Prove destroyed means what you say. The word of God does not[ teach annihilationism].

I do not believe the Bible teaches the immortality of the soul of the lost.
I do believe the Bible teaches the eternal suffering of the lost.

Now do you understand why? [I'm not asking that you agree.]