Soul Sleep, ECT, Annihilation: Are the dead conscious or not?

[JohnnyP]

". . . the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, . . ." -- Revelation 14:11.

I don't think I mentioned this yet but terms for torment/torture (basanismos/basanizó) be applied different ways, like here with tossed:

Matthew 14:24 But the ship was now in the midst of the sea, tossed with waves: for the wind was contrary.

Applied like that we can also see chaff burned and destroyed with nothing left but ashes tossed about in the flames.

I'm not sure I asked about this either:

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Do you believe the Beast and False Prophet are real men tortured in the Lake of Fire, or more like concepts and ideas against Jesus that are done away with?

[37818]

I don't think I mentioned this yet but terms for torment/torture (basanismos/basanizó) be applied different ways, like here with tossed:

Matthew 14:24 But the ship was now in the midst of the sea, tossed with waves: for the wind was contrary.

Applied like that we can also see chaff burned and destroyed with nothing left but ashes tossed about in the flames.

I'm not sure I asked about this either:

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Do you believe the Beast and False Prophet are real men tortured in the Lake of Fire, or more like concepts and ideas against Jesus that are done away with?

I have no reason not to understand them to be real personages. Understanding that the Beast as a human and the antichrist is the common understanding. Of course the false prophet would be a man.

[JohnnyP]

I have no reason not to understand them to be real personages. Understanding that the Beast as a human and the antichrist is the common understanding. Of course the false prophet would be a man.

With about 19 horns and heads out there understood to be kingdoms, I think it would be hard to pin it on one individual.

[37818]

With about 19 horns and heads out there understood to be kingdoms, I think it would be hard to pin it on one individual.

Oh. That beast. It is symbolic indeed. It is not the same one spoken to be cast into the lake of fire. You think it is? Make the case.

[JohnnyP]

Revelation 19 is talking about the Beast with 7 Heads/10 Horns, as well as the False Prophet with 2 Horns, correct?

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Revelation 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

[Timothy]

Prove destroyed means what you say. The word of God does not[ teach annihilationism].

I do not believe the Bible teaches the immortality of the soul of the lost.
I do believe the Bible teaches the eternal suffering of the lost.

Now do you understand why? [I'm not asking that you agree.]

You do not believe that the Bible teaches the immortality of the lost, yet you believe that they eternally suffer. Can you see the contradiction in your belief? If they eternally suffer, then they are immortal. If they are not immortal, then they can not be alive for all eternity, suffering.
(Why do I bother????)

[37818]

You do not believe that the Bible teaches the immortality of the lost, yet you believe that they eternally suffer. Can you see the contradiction in your belief?

In your [mis]understanding how can it not be a contradiction? It cannot. In my view it is not a contradiction. Since death is separation from life. And consciousness is separate from death. And destruction is not annihilation or ceasing to exist in my understanding. Destruction is ruin and death, not non-existence. Which your view disallows. Jesus in His soul suffered and died on the cross to pay for and take on the penalty for sin. And after He finished that (John 19:28) then He physically dead to prove victory over death (John 19:30, 1 Corinthians 15:55-57; 1 Peter 3:18-19).

If they eternally suffer, then they are immortal.

No. Not there souls. Their "worm" is immortal.

If they are not immortal, then they can not be alive for all eternity, suffering.
(Why do I bother????)

No. Their worm does not die. (see Mark 9:48.)

[Timothy]

In your [mis]understanding how can it not be a contradiction? It cannot. In my view it is not a contradiction. Since death is separation from life. And consciousness is separate from death. And destruction is not annihilation or ceasing to exist in my understanding. Destruction is ruin and death, not non-existence. Which your view disallows. Jesus in His soul suffered and died on the cross to pay for and take on the penalty for sin. And after He finished that (John 19:28) then He physically dead to prove victory over death (John 19:30, 1 Corinthians 15:55-57; 1 Peter 3:18-19).
No. Not there souls. Their "worm" is immortal.

No. Their worm does not die. (see Mark 9:48.)

What? Their pet worm is immortal? If they are conscious, then they have eternal life. If they are conscious of torment, then they have eternal life. You said yourself that the Bible does not teach the immortality of their souls. If they are not immortal, they do not live forever in torment.

[37818]

What? Their pet worm is immortal? If they are conscious, then they have eternal life.

Again, your view. Not mine. Their worm is not a pet, it is their never dying consciousness of the dead soul. My view.

If they are conscious of torment, then they have eternal life. You said yourself that the Bible does not teach the immortality of their souls. If they are not immortal, they do not live forever in torment.

Their worm not their soul. ". . . to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." -- Mark 9:48.

The prophecy of Jesus' death on the cross states, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? . . . I [am] a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, . . . they pierced my hands and my feet. . . . They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. . . . " -- Psalm 22

Jesus competed the redemption for our sins on the cross before He physically died. " . . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ." -- John 19:28.

In other words Jesus' soul died on the cross and yet being conscious. ". . . his soul an offering for sin, . . . he hath poured out his soul unto death: . . . ." -- Isaiah 53:10, 12. ". . . But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." -- Romans 5:8.

". . . It is finished, . . ." -- John 19:30, before He physically died! Remember Jesus taught the death of the body and the death of the soul are not the same, ". . . them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: . . ." -- Matthew 10:28.

Now this is what I believe.

Show me why you need to believe differently. Don't merely argue that I'm wrong and your right. Explain step by step how you see it.

Now the sole reason I came to become a Christian was the idea that I can know for sure. It is my view all genuine Christians, whom God has saved, has given them eternal life (John 10:28). And the lost whose souls are dead to this life remain alive in Hades until the judgment after which both their resurrected body and soul die in the second death. Their worm not dying. So suffering for all eternity. Now you have a picture of my view.

Step me through your view.

[JohnnyP]

Now the sole reason I came to become a Christian was the idea that I can know for sure. It is my view all genuine Christians, whom God has saved, has given them eternal life (John 10:28). And the lost whose souls are dead to this life remain alive in Hades until the judgment after which both their resurrected body and soul die in the second death. Their worm not dying. So suffering for all eternity. Now you have a picture of my view.

Step me through your view.

I'll jump in again to give mine. I think the worm is just Satan the Serpent eating dust, where man goes to unless he is saved, Genesis 3:14/19.

Same as the belly of the fish of Jonah, in the sea turned Lake of Fire that's never quenched. If Jonah stayed there in Hades he'd just not exist with the fish in that same sea. Hades would be the place to repent like Jonah did, a purgatory. The Sea would be the place of non-repentance for those damned by the unforgivable sin and those not repenting in Hades.

Source: KJV

1 Peter 3:18-19 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

© Copyright Original Source

After Judgment there's no indication that anyone will be suffering in the Lake of Fire, it's just non-existence.

Source: KJV

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

© Copyright Original Source

To summarize, the damned are dust in the worm burned up in the Lake of Fire, and that it's never quenched means they are just burned up, there's no coming back to exist anymore.

[Timothy]

Again, your view. Not mine. Their worm is not a pet, it is their never dying consciousness of the dead soul. My view.

Their worm not their soul. ". . . to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." -- Mark 9:48.

The prophecy of Jesus' death on the cross states, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? . . . I [am] a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, . . . they pierced my hands and my feet. . . . They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. . . . " -- Psalm 22

Jesus competed the redemption for our sins on the cross before He physically died. " . . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ." -- John 19:28.

In other words Jesus' soul died on the cross and yet being conscious. ". . . his soul an offering for sin, . . . he hath poured out his soul unto death: . . . ." -- Isaiah 53:10, 12. ". . . But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." -- Romans 5:8.

". . . It is finished, . . ." -- John 19:30, before He physically died! Remember Jesus taught the death of the body and the death of the soul are not the same, ". . . them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: . . ." -- Matthew 10:28.

Now this is what I believe.

Show me why you need to believe differently. Don't merely argue that I'm wrong and your right. Explain step by step how you see it.

Now the sole reason I came to become a Christian was the idea that I can know for sure. It is my view all genuine Christians, whom God has saved, has given them eternal life (John 10:28). And the lost whose souls are dead to this life remain alive in Hades until the judgment after which both their resurrected body and soul die in the second death. Their worm not dying. So suffering for all eternity. Now you have a picture of my view.

Step me through your view.

You said yourself, "I do not believe the Bible teaches the immortality of the soul of the lost."
Yet you also said " Their worm is not a pet, it is their never dying consciousness of the dead soul."

Something that is "never dying" is immortal. You can't have this both ways. The soul can't be both "never dying" AND "Not immortal".

I just believe what the Bible says. Either a person perishes or they have eternal life. You now that the Bible says this in John 3:16. "whosoever believes will not PERISH but will have eternal life".

You don't understand the "worm" in Isaiah 66. The worm is NOT the person, or the person's "never dying consciousness of their dead soul". The worm is the worm that eats their dead corpse after they have died. "Their worm" is the specific worm that is chewing on "them". Get it? The person is not alive, the person is not conscious. Their soul is not alive, their soul is not conscious. Their soul is not "their worm".

I see that you quoted Jesus in Matthew 10:28, but missed the second half of the verse, also missing the entire point of Matthew 10:28. God CAN destroy both body and soul. This IS what happens to those who reject God.

[37818]

You said yourself, "I do not believe the Bible teaches the immortality of the soul of the lost."
Yet you also said " Their worm is not a pet, it is their never dying consciousness of the dead soul."

Something that is "never dying" is immortal. You can't have this both ways. The soul can't be both "never dying" AND "Not immortal".

Your view denies Mark 9:48. What else should I understand? Their soul dies, their worm is immortal. The worm is not the soul. How hard is that to understand?

I just believe what the Bible says. Either a person perishes or they have eternal life. You now that the Bible says this in John 3:16. "whosoever believes will not PERISH but will have eternal life".

Yeah, from a point of view that the majority of Christians who mistakenly believe the soul is immortal, think you are wrong.about what it means to perish. That the lost who perish suffer forever.

We are looking at at least three different interpretations here.

You don't understand the "worm" in Isaiah 66. The worm is NOT the person, or the person's "never dying consciousness of their dead soul". The worm is the worm that eats their dead corpse after they have died. "Their worm" is the specific worm that is chewing on "them". Get it? The person is not alive, the person is not conscious. Their soul is not alive, their soul is not conscious. Their soul is not "their worm".

You are making stuff up. Isaiah 66 says nothing of "their worm shall not die" "eating their bodies." See Job 21:26 and Isaiah 14:11 for worms [in the plural].

Explain why they [plural] each would have a singular "worm" that never dies and why the fire is not put out? Why does the prophecy Psalm 22 say "I [am] a worm?" Why does Jesus teach then "immortality" of the soul and then teach its destruction[mere ruin] (Matthew 10:28). So most Bible interpreters so understand Jesus' words.

I see that you quoted Jesus in Matthew 10:28, but missed the second half of the verse, also missing the entire point of Matthew 10:28. God CAN destroy both body and soul. This IS what happens to those who reject God.

Ah, yes. Your understanding of destruction ἀπόλλυμι apollumi is not biblical. How do you understand Jesus' words, "are not able to kill the soul?" As I noted, most Christians understand here, Jesus to teach the immortality of the soul.

Your view is the one which does not make any sense. I had asked you to make sense of your view, saying, "Step me through your view." And you have not.

[Timothy]

Your view denies Mark 9:48. What else should I understand? Their soul dies, their worm is immortal. The worm is not the soul. How hard is that to understand?
Yeah, from a point of view that the majority of Christians who mistakenly believe the soul is immortal, think you are wrong.about what it means to perish. That the lost who perish suffer forever.

We are looking at at least three different interpretations here.
You are making stuff up. Isaiah 66 says nothing of "their worm shall not die" "eating their bodies." See Job 21:26 and Isaiah 14:11 for worms [in the plural].

Explain why they [plural] each would have a singular "worm" that never dies and why the fire is not put out? Why does the prophecy Psalm 22 say "I [am] a worm?" Why does Jesus teach then "immortality" of the soul and then teach its destruction[mere ruin] (Matthew 10:28). So most Bible interpreters so understand Jesus' words.


Ah, yes. Your understanding of destruction ἀπόλλυμι apollumi is not biblical. How do you understand Jesus' words, "are not able to kill the soul?" As I noted, most Christians understand here, Jesus to teach the immortality of the soul.

Your view is the one which does not make any sense. I had asked you to make sense of your view, saying, "Step me through your view." And you have not.

I'm tired of arguing with you. I'm not making stuff up or denying Mark 9:48.
Deny it all you want, but apollumi actually does mean destruction, and Isaiah 66:24 actually does say that they are dead, not alive.

You also asked me how I understand Jesus' words "are not able to kill the soul". Simple, read what the verse says. Don't fear PEOPLE who are unable to kill the soul. Rather fear the one who IS ABLE to destroy BOTH the body and the soul.

Throughout the Bible, the penalty for sin is said to be death, destruction, perishing, being burnt up, being turned to ash and blown away, and being no more. Why shouldn't I accept that all of these actually mean what they say? Why wouldn't death actually mean death and not eternal life in hell? Why wouldn't the term destroy actually mean destroy, and why would the Bible say they are destroyed if they are actually preserved alive forever in hell instead of being destroyed? No, it is actually your view which makes no sense and does not conform to what the Bible actually says. But your view is very popular. That doesn't make it true. It would have to agree with the Bible in order to be true.

I can see that you do not want to change your view no matter what I say or what the Bible says anyway, all you want to do is insult me, so there is no reason for me to continue this discussion. You can believe what you want to believe.

[37818]

I'm tired of arguing with you. I'm not making stuff up or denying Mark 9:48.
Deny it all you want, but apollumi actually does mean destruction, and Isaiah 66:24 actually does say that they are dead, not alive.

You also asked me how I understand Jesus' words "are not able to kill the soul". Simple, read what the verse says. Don't fear PEOPLE who are unable to kill the soul. Rather fear the one who IS ABLE to destroy BOTH the body and the soul.

Throughout the Bible, the penalty for sin is said to be death, destruction, perishing, being burnt up, being turned to ash and blown away, and being no more. Why shouldn't I accept that all of these actually mean what they say? Why wouldn't death actually mean death and not eternal life in hell? Why wouldn't the term destroy actually mean destroy, and why would the Bible say they are destroyed if they are actually preserved alive forever in hell instead of being destroyed? No, it is actually your view which makes no sense and does not conform to what the Bible actually says. But your view is very popular. That doesn't make it true. It would have to agree with the Bible in order to be true.

I can see that you do not want to change your view no matter what I say or what the Bible says anyway, all you want to do is insult me, so there is no reason for me to continue this discussion. You can believe what you want to believe.

why should I change my view from the correct Biblical view to your false view? Prove one point.

[Timothy]

why should I change my view from the correct Biblical view to your false view? Prove one point.

My false view??? You should believe what the Bible says or reject what the Bible says and hold on to the false view of eternal conscious torture in hell.
Throughout the Bible, the penalty for sin is said to be death, destruction, perishing, being burnt up, being turned to ash and blown away, and being no more.
That is what I believe.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. True or False?
2 Thessalonians 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might. True or False?
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. True or False?
Matthew 3:12 "His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." True or False?
Malachi 4:1 For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the LORD of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. True or False?
Psalm 37:10 In just a little while, the wicked will be no more; though you look carefully at his place, he will not be there. True or False?

Believe whatever you want to believe, I don't care. I can only tell you what the Bible says. I can't make you accept it. I've proven that the Bible says each thing that I have said. You are just unwilling to accept it. So believe whatever you want to believe. Reject the Bible if you want to, and you can face Jesus Christ on Judgment Day, having rejected the truth of the Bible. Good Luck with that. But I will not change back from believing the truth of the Bible to your false view, a view that I once held but rejected because of what the Bible says. But you can do whatever you want. Reject the truth, if it makes you feel good. I wish you well.