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Soul Sleep, ECT, Annihilation: Are the dead conscious or not?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
    He didn't say it was paid in full. He said it was finished. I doubt that you are fluent in Greek. Don't pretend that you are.

    There is no "upper compartment" of hell.

    Furthermore, even if there were an upper compartment, Jesus clearly could not have gone there because Jesus was not alive. Jesus was dead.

    Luke 16:23
    And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

    Matthew 22:32
    I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

    Revelation 1:18
    I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

    Jesus was in affliction:

    Jonah 2
    1 Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly,
    2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

    Finally I think your view completely trivializes the fact that old testament sacrifices were burnt by fire.
    i'm not fluent but I know folks who are and are well versed in the study of the ANE times the bible was written and trust them more then i trust someone who accept only one option in english with out understanding the ANE culture.

    Comment


    • #62
      Do you trust them more than you trust Jonah?

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
        Do you trust them more than you trust Jonah?
        Nope i trust them more then I trust you. To understand what the bible is truly saying about the sign of Jonah.
        Last edited by RumTumTugger; 10-14-2014, 12:40 PM.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
          Yes, I'm denying that his redemption was finished on the cross. Only his life's work was finished on the cross. I say that he went to hell for three days, in the same way that the sacrifices were burnt. In the passage from Mark that I cited, Jesus specifically compared the burnt sacrifices to hell. What exactly am I saying that you find unclear?
          Obsidian I just noticed the bold statement it looks to me as if you are calling Jesus a liar if he spent 3 days in hell

          Luk 23:39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”
          Luk 23:40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation?
          Luk 23:41 "And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.”
          Luk 23:42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
          Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

          how could Jesus have been 3 days in hell if he was with the thief in paradise that day hmm?

          For that matter who says Jesus spent 3 days in Hell I don't see it in the bible nor in any of the creeds I was raised up with.
          Last edited by RumTumTugger; 10-14-2014, 12:42 PM.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by The Apostles' Creed
            . . . suffered under Pontius Pilate,
            was crucified, died and was buried;
            he descended into hell;
            on the third day he rose again from the dead . . .
            Matthew 12:40
            For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.


            Originally posted by RumTumTugger
            how could Jesus have been 3 days in hell if he was with the thief in paradise that day hmm?
            I think he was probably just saying, "Today I assure you." The grammar is ambiguous. An alternative view is that Jesus's statement was a reference to the trinity.
            Last edited by Obsidian; 10-14-2014, 02:09 PM.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
              Matthew 12:40
              For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
              This was talking about the grave and Jesus's Resurrection not hell. and if you are say that the 3 days in hell is in the apostles creed nope it only says he descended into hell not how long. the third day was in reference to his resurrection from the tomb his grave in other words.

              Luke 24:46And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, “Father, ‘into Your hands I commit My spirit.’  Having said this, He breathed His last.


              He put his spirit in Gods hand,Not Satan's. No matter what you think or how you try to twist the meaning away from what was truely said and done Jesus did not commit his spirit to Satan or hell to pay for our sins. he committed it to God because the work he came for which was the Salvation of the world was finished on the cross.

              I think he was probably just saying, "Today I assure you." The grammar is ambiguous. An alternative view is that Jesus's statement was a reference to the trinity.
              No Obsidian nothing ambiguous about the grammar, Jesus was saying you will be with me Today. No matter what verbal gymnastics you attempt to use to explain away the clear teaching here.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by RumTugTugger
                He put his spirit in Gods hand,Not Satan's. No matter what you think or how you try to twist the meaning away from what was truely said and done Jesus did not commit his spirit to Satan or hell to pay for our sins.
                Satan does not rule hell.

                No Obsidian nothing ambiguous about the grammar
                You're just being dishonest. No point in debating further with you.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                  Satan does not rule hell.
                  You may be right about that but that does not prove that Jesus did not paid for all our sins on the Crossed and had to spend 3 days in hell sorry. I accept his statement that he and the thief would be together in paradise that day.

                  You're just being dishonest. No point in debating further with you.
                  No Obsidian no dishonesty here. I do not see anything ambiguous about the Grammar, nor do the teachers I trust more then you to understand the ANE culture and languages. I"m still interested in the debate but if you aren't fine but I was not being dishonest Obsidian so don't use that as an excuse to stop debating.
                  Last edited by RumTumTugger; 10-15-2014, 11:21 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                    He didn't say it was paid in full. He said it was finished. I doubt that you are fluent in Greek. Don't pretend that you are.

                    There is no "upper compartment" of hell.

                    Furthermore, even if there were an upper compartment, Jesus clearly could not have gone there because Jesus was not alive. Jesus was dead.

                    Luke 16:23
                    And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

                    Matthew 22:32
                    I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

                    Revelation 1:18
                    I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

                    Jesus was in affliction:

                    Jonah 2
                    1 Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly,
                    2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

                    Finally I think your view completely trivializes the fact that old testament sacrifices were burnt by fire.
                    Death is separation from life. Jesus was separated from His body. But was alive in Paradise, where Abraham was. Both Paradise and the Pit where then in Sheol/Hades. The nether in heart of the earth. ". . . in hell[Sheol/Hades] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, . . ." -- Luke 16:23.

                    ". . . For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, . . ." -- 1 Peter 3:18-20.

                    ". . . And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. . . _ . . . when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, . . ." -- Genesis 6:3, 4.

                    ". . . For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. . . ." -- 1 Peter 4:6.

                    Now you do not agree. But do you not comprehend my view? I see in the nether world that there was before Jesus ascended into heaven two compartments.

                    Abraham argued, ". . . If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. " -- Luke 16:31.

                    Moses wrote quoting God, "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell[Sheol, nether world], and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains." -- Deuteronomy 32:22.

                    The prophet David wrote, "For great [is] thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell[Sheol, nether world]." -- Psalm 86:13.

                    Prior to the ascension of Christ all God's saints went to the nether world. Except of course those few who did not die (Enoch, Elijah).

                    The prophet Ezekiel wrote,". . . when I cast him down to hell[Sheol, nether world] with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth." -- Ezekiel 31:16.
                    ". . . which are gone down uncircumcised into the nether parts of the earth, which caused their terror in the land of the living; yet have they borne their shame with them that go down to the pit." -- Ezekiel 32:24.

                    I understand the Pit to refer to the lowest Sheol.
                    Last edited by 37818; 10-15-2014, 08:00 PM.
                    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      But you don't have any evidence to support the theory that the "highest hell" is a pleasant paradise. You are simply reading that into the text regarding the beggar. It makes just as much sense to assume that the beggar was in heaven, and that the "lowest hell" is the place where the worst sinners go.

                      And you may call it "death" simply to be separated from the body. But from the definition that Jesus (and John) typically used, if he was in paradise then he was never dead.
                      Last edited by Obsidian; 10-15-2014, 10:10 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by RumTumTugger View Post
                        Obsidian I just noticed the bold statement it looks to me as if you are calling Jesus a liar if he spent 3 days in hell

                        Luk 23:39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”
                        Luk 23:40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation?
                        Luk 23:41 "And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.”
                        Luk 23:42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
                        Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

                        how could Jesus have been 3 days in hell if he was with the thief in paradise that day hmm?

                        For that matter who says Jesus spent 3 days in Hell I don't see it in the bible nor in any of the creeds I was raised up with.
                        I haven't read all the posts yet since I started this, but if Jesus is God at what point did he become omnipresent? Just a thought. Also this pretty much says Jesus went to Hades after he was put to death:

                        1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

                        1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                          Do you understand the difference between Sheol/Hades and the eternal Gehenna fire? ". . . shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. . . . " -- Matthew 13:42. ". . . to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. . . . "-- Mark 9:47, 48. ". . . shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, . . ." -- Revelation 14:10, 11.
                          Yes, the Gehenna fire. Jesus said "fear the one who is able to destroy both body and soul in Gehenna.
                          Cast into a furnace of fire? Yes, that would destroy someone.
                          Read Isaiah 66:24, the worms and fire are eating and burning dead bodies, not eternally living souls.
                          "shall be tormented day and night" refers to the devil, the beast and the false prophet. Read the verse. It doesn't refer to all of the lost.

                          But the kicker is, the Bible says that the wages of sin is death, not eternal conscious torment in hell.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Timothy View Post
                            Yes, the Gehenna fire. Jesus said "fear the one who is able to destroy both body and soul in Gehenna.
                            Cast into a furnace of fire? Yes, that would destroy someone.
                            Read Isaiah 66:24, the worms and fire are eating and burning dead bodies, not eternally living souls.
                            "shall be tormented day and night" refers to the devil, the beast and the false prophet. Read the verse. It doesn't refer to all of the lost.

                            But the kicker is, the Bible says that the wages of sin is death, not eternal conscious torment in hell.
                            Isaiah does not say "worms" plural. And the word translated destroy, means to ruin. That is both the body and soul will be dead. Yet the dead are conscious. Just as Jesus' was conscious on the cross, His soul having died there (Isaiah 53:10, 12).
                            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              Isaiah does not say "worms" plural. And the word translated destroy, means to ruin. That is both the body and soul will be dead. Yet the dead are conscious. Just as Jesus' was conscious on the cross, His soul having died there (Isaiah 53:10, 12).
                              The word that was translated destroy in Matthew 10:28 is ἀπολέσαι and it does mean destroy.
                              The context of Matthew 10:28 doesn't allow the meaning of "ruin, but not destroy". Jesus is contrasting men who can't destroy the soul with the one we should fear who can destroy the soul.

                              Concerning the worms in Isaiah 66, here is the verse:
                              “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

                              Plural worms or singular, the dead corpses are not conscious.

                              Just as Jesus' was conscious on the cross, His soul having died there (Isaiah 53:10, 12).
                              What?!
                              Jesus was conscious on the cross WHILE HE WAS ALIVE. Not after he died. Then he was not conscious, because he was dead.
                              Isaiah 53:10 and 12 do not say that Jesus was conscious on the cross after he died on the cross. Here it is.

                              Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him;
                              he has put him to grief;
                              when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
                              he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
                              the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

                              Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,
                              and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,
                              because he poured out his soul to death
                              and was numbered with the transgressors;
                              yet he bore the sin of many,
                              and makes intercession for the transgressors.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Timothy View Post
                                The word that was translated destroy in Matthew 10:28 is ἀπολέσαι and it does mean destroy.
                                The context of Matthew 10:28 doesn't allow the meaning of "ruin, but not destroy". Jesus is contrasting men who can't destroy the soul with the one we should fear who can destroy the soul.
                                Well do you not agree that the soul along with the body dies in the Gehenna fire? What does not die is their worm (singular). While we do not agree, it is nevertheless my view it is "their worm" which does not die, is the consciousness of the dead soul. This is what I understand. You don't, that is your problem, not mine.
                                Concerning the worms in Isaiah 66, here is the verse:
                                “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

                                Plural worms or singular, the dead corpses are not conscious.
                                The word both in the Hebrew and Jesus citing as written in the Greek are both singular "worm." The "their" is plural. Each dead soul, their worm does not die. Hence, they suffer for all eternity. My view. Not yours. You do not have to agree. It does not change the text.

                                What?!
                                Jesus was conscious on the cross WHILE HE WAS ALIVE. Not after he died. Then he was not conscious, because he was dead.
                                Isaiah 53:10 and 12 do not say that Jesus was conscious on the cross after he died on the cross. Here it is.

                                Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him;
                                he has put him to grief;
                                when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
                                he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
                                the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

                                Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,
                                and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,
                                because he poured out his soul to death
                                and was numbered with the transgressors;
                                yet he bore the sin of many,
                                and makes intercession for the transgressors.
                                Jesus death for sin was completed before He physically died (John 19:28). Jesus suffered on the cross for sins, shedding the blood of His soul. Hence, paying in full for our sins. ". . . My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? . . . But I [am] a worm, and no man; . . ." Psalm 22:1, 6, Jesus paying for our sins on the cross, paying in full (John 19:30).
                                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                                Comment

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