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Thread: Soul Sleep, ECT, Annihilation: Are the dead conscious or not?

  1. #131
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    To say, "be no more" is no different than saying "to be annihilated."

    Well you distort the ECT view. And you further distort the view I hold. How should I change my mind when you lie about the view I have held?

    Not going to happen. Here is why: You distort the view you disagree with. Add to the fact, you do not deal with the issues which give rise to the view you believe is not Biblical. You retort to your definitions, disallowing the true Biblical usage behind the words of the translation.

    It is not hard to make your case, if it is true, as you contend. Set the two views side by side. Claim by claim.

    Give valid answers for the questions which the defenders of ECT make. Remember the lost sheep? I tried to provide a plausible argument for you, using the word "gone" regarding the lost sheep.

    Here is the question: Jesus warned, "Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell." Now explain why once one is died, should fear God for casting him/her in hell? Make sense of that, would you please.
    Jesus explained why we should fear God whom "after he has killed has the power to cast into hell". Read Matthew 10:28, we should fear the one who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell. We should fear being destroyed in hell. It's makes perfect sense, if those who are sent to hell truly are destroyed there, as I believe. Does that make sense to you now brother?

    Also, I agree with you that "To say, "be no more" is no different than saying "to be annihilated."". And this is exactly what the Bible says will happen to the wicked. "The wicked will be no more". I'm not making this up, that is exactly what the Bible says in Psalm 37:10. You can see it for yourself.

  2. #132
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy View Post
    Jesus explained why we should fear God whom "after he has killed has the power to cast into hell". Read Matthew 10:28, we should fear the one who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell. We should fear being destroyed in hell. It's makes perfect sense, if those who are sent to hell truly are destroyed there, as I believe. Does that make sense to you now brother?
    If one has been killed, one is dead, right? So how is one to fear having both the body and soul being aready dead to be destroyed?
    Also, I agree with you that "To say, "be no more" is no different than saying "to be annihilated."". And this is exactly what the Bible says will happen to the wicked. "The wicked will be no more". I'm not making this up, that is exactly what the Bible says in Psalm 37:10. You can see it for yourself.
    Yeah, from the earth (v.9).
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  3. #133
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    If one has been killed, one is dead, right? So how is one to fear having both the body and soul being aready dead to be destroyed?
    Because man is NOT able to destroy both body and soul, so we should not fear man, But God IS able to destroy both the body and the soul in Gehenna so we should fear that.
    I honestly do not know why you can't understand this. It is EXACTLY what Jesus said.


    Yeah, from the earth (v.9).
    No, Psalm 37 doesn't say that the wicked will be destroyed FROM THE EARTH. It says that the wicked will be destroyed, just as the doctrine of Conditional Immortality states. The reason is that the doctrine of Conditional Immortality comes directly from the Bible.

    Can you tell me what the doctrine of Conditional Immortality says in your own words?

    No, Psalm

  4. #134
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy View Post
    Because man is NOT able to destroy both body and soul, so we should not fear man, But God IS able to destroy both the body and the soul in Gehenna so we should fear that.
    I honestly do not know why you can't understand this. It is EXACTLY what Jesus said.
    Jesus said, "after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell." After they are dead, they are cast into hell. After they are dead, then after they are killed, the body and soul are destroyed. (Luke 12:5.)


    No, Psalm 37 doesn't say that the wicked will be destroyed FROM THE EARTH. It says that the wicked will be destroyed, just as the doctrine of Conditional Immortality states. The reason is that the doctrine of Conditional Immortality comes directly from the Bible.
    ". . . For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked [shall] not [be]: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it [shall] not [be]. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. . . ." -- Psalm 37:9-11.




    Can you tell me what the doctrine of Conditional Immortality says in your own words?
    The word of God teaches that the sinner's soul shall die. And only those who know God personally through Jesus Christ His sent Son shall possess eternal life and whose souls shall then therefore have become immortal.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  5. #135
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim
    Can you tell me what the doctrine of Conditional Immortality says in your own words?
    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    The word of God teaches that the sinner's soul shall die. And only those who know God personally through Jesus Christ His sent Son shall possess eternal life and whose souls shall then therefore have become immortal.
    Thank you. That is what I believe. Is this also your belief? The reason I asked, is because I wanted to know if someone who didn't accept the doctrine of Conditional Immortality could describe it without repeating what the Bible says. I believe the doctrine of Conditional Immortality is described perfectly throughout the Bible.

  6. #136
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy View Post
    Thank you. That is what I believe. Is this also your belief? The reason I asked, is because I wanted to know if someone who didn't accept the doctrine of Conditional Immortality could describe it without repeating what the Bible says. I believe the doctrine of Conditional Immortality is described perfectly throughout the Bible.
    I believe in both conditional immortality and the eternal conscious torment of the dead.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  7. #137
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    I believe in both conditional immortality and the eternal conscious torment of the dead.
    http://www.rethinkinghell.com/about/statement

  8. #138
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy View Post
    The view I hold is not that view. As I pointed out, while I hold to conditional immortality of the soul, I also hold to a eternal conscious torment of the dead souls. At issue is the Biblical view point. Each view claiming the view held to be Biblical.

    What needs to be identified are the key differences in understanding held by each. And the Biblical truths agree and disagreed on. And why.
    Last edited by 37818; 12-10-2014 at 09:00 AM.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  9. #139
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    The view I hold is not that view. As I pointed out, while I hold to conditional immortality of the soul, I also hold to a eternal conscious torment of the dead souls. At issue is the Biblical view point. Each view claiming the view held to be Biblical.

    What needs to be identified are the key differences in understanding held by each. And the Biblical truths agree and disagreed on. And why.
    That would be interesting.
    What do you feel the key differences are in the eternal conscious torment model and the conditional immortality model?
    Have you seen this diagram listing the key differences and key agreements between the three different views on the fate of the unsaved?
    http://www.rethinkinghell.com/assets...med_detail.png

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