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Soul Sleep, ECT, Annihilation: Are the dead conscious or not?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    Well, there is no place "Abraham's Bosom." Except where Lazarus was "in his bosom," that is, in Abraham's arms in Sheol/Hades.

    Sheol/Hades had two compartments, and upper also referred to indirectly as "Paradise." And the lower compartment where there was the fire, as described as a singular flame.

    The story is not a parable. Abraham makes reference to Moses and the prophets (Luke 16:29).

    Mose wrote:
    "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest *hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains." -- Deuteronomy 32:22.

    David wrote:
    "For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest *hell." -- Psalm 86:13.

    *hell, that is, Sheol/Hades.
    Point being again that the NT goes into more detail about various abodes of the dead, the OT is more ambiguous. Again Isaiah 5:14 depicts a temporary Sheol, then its continuation into a larger more eternal burning up of everything in it. Thus every instance of Sheol in the OT must be examined to see what is really indicated, whether temporary abodes of righteous and wicked where consciousness such as the Rich Man's and Abraham's exist, or a more eternal continuation of the temporary Hell in the Lake of Fire where everything is burned up into dust and the dead may not be conscious, which is implied in Ecclesiastes.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
      Point being again that the NT goes into more detail about various abodes of the dead, the OT is more ambiguous. Again Isaiah 5:14 depicts a temporary Sheol, then its continuation into a larger more eternal burning up of everything in it. Thus every instance of Sheol in the OT must be examined to see what is really indicated, whether temporary abodes of righteous and wicked where consciousness such as the Rich Man's and Abraham's exist, or a more eternal continuation of the temporary Hell in the Lake of Fire where everything is burned up into dust and the dead may not be conscious, which is implied in Ecclesiastes.
      fine, that is how you see it. I do not see that way. Isaiah 5:14 figurative language is used. I understand Sheol/Hades/nether world/realm of the dead to be the abode of the dead, now since the ascension of Christ, the place only of the lost dead until the judgment. Along with death and the oceans.

      As for the lake of fire, I believe Jesus taught this, "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Where both the body and soul die (Matthew 10:28) the conscious part of man which never dies is called in the singular "worm." See the prophecy of Jesus on the cross, "I am a worm and not a man," Psalm 22:.
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        fine, that is how you see it. I do not see that way. Isaiah 5:14 figurative language is used. I understand Sheol/Hades/nether world/realm of the dead to be the abode of the dead, now since the ascension of Christ, the place only of the lost dead until the judgment. Along with death and the oceans.

        As for the lake of fire, I believe Jesus taught this, "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Where both the body and soul die (Matthew 10:28) the conscious part of man which never dies is called in the singular "worm." See the prophecy of Jesus on the cross, "I am a worm and not a man," Psalm 22:.
        The unquenchable fire and the worms that will not die are a clear referent not to Psalm 22, but to Isaiah 66:24, where both are mentioned (and note that what is being described here are corpses).
        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
          The unquenchable fire and the worms that will not die are a clear referent not to Psalm 22, but to Isaiah 66:24, where both are mentioned (and note that what is being described here are corpses).
          It does not say "worms" but "their" plural "worm" singular.
          " . . . for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; . . ." -- Isaiah 66:24.

          ". . . thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, . . ." -- Isaiah 53:10.

          ". . . My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? . . . _ . . . But I am a worm, and no man; . . . ." -- Psalm 22:1, ,6.

          ". . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ." -- John 19:28.

          " . . . And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. . . ." -- Luke 23:46.

          Summary: Jesus bore our sins on the cross, suffering for our sins, after completing this, His soul is restored and again in fellowship with His Father.
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
            It does not say "worms" by "their" plural "worm" singular.
            " . . . for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; . . ." -- Isaiah 66:24.

            ". . . thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, . . ." -- Isaiah 53:10.

            ". . . My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? . . . _ . . . But I am a worm, and no man; . . . ." -- Psalm 22:1, ,6.

            ". . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ." -- John 19:28.

            " . . . And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. . . ." -- Luke 23:46.

            Summary: Jesus bore our sins on the cross, suffering for our sins, after completing this, His soul is restored and again in fellowship with His Father.
            You really think that the difference in pluralization is significant? What I find far more significant is that this is the only place in the OT where undying worms and unquenchable fire are mentioned at the same time. The difference may well be accounted for by the fact that Isaiah and Matthew were not written in the same language. (I also don't see what Psalm 22 has in common with this passage other than use of the word "worm".)
            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
              You really think that the difference in pluralization is significant? What I find far more significant is that this is the only place in the OT where undying worms and unquenchable fire are mentioned at the same time. The difference may well be accounted for by the fact that Isaiah and Matthew were not written in the same language. (I also don't see what Psalm 22 has in common with this passage other than use of the word "worm".)
              Plural and singular is indeed significant. Both in the OT citation and Jesus' quote. It is my view point Jesus' suffering on the cross demonstrates that the lost are to suffer for all eternity.

              As for the significance of the singular, compare the "seed" verses "seeds" argument that was made here: "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." -- Galatians 3:16.

              It is my firm understanding the word of God does not teach immortality of the soul (Ezekiel 18:4) but does teach the eternal suffering of the lost (Mark 9:48, Revelation 14:11). And it is my firm understanding Christ's suffering on the cross supports this.
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by 37818 View Post

                It is my firm understanding the word of God does not teach immortality of the soul (Ezekiel 18:4) but does teach the eternal suffering of the lost (Mark 9:48, Revelation 14:11). And it is my firm understanding Christ's suffering on the cross supports this.
                Again, though, we'd have to look at the original languages, because the respective books were written in different languages and thus, the exact same word will not be used. But I will look into this.

                Using Mark 9:48 to prove that suffering is eternal in Mark 9:48 is circular, but Revelation 14:11 is a much stronger case (along with Revelation 20:10). I almost would want to take that to a new thread all together.
                "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                Comment


                • #23
                  Incidentally, I heard from somebody who looked it up on e-Sword and says that it's "worm" in the Septuagint. But I asked a Bible scholar I know and we'll see what he says.

                  Update: " Tolatam is the form of the noun here, and I suspect this guy got confused by the pronominal suffix (am). It is a plural pronominal suffix because it is "their" worm. But the noun itself is singular."
                  Last edited by KingsGambit; 01-30-2014, 07:47 PM.
                  "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    "Soul sleep", endless conscious torment and annihilation?

                    *yawn*
                    For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      The dead are unconscious

                      Greetings JohnnyP,

                      To add a few more verses to the discussion without answering or commenting on other verses already mentioned, the following seem to teach that the dead are not conscious, but have returned to dust. They await the resurrection when Christ returns:
                      Genesis 3:17-19 (KJV): 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
                      Daniel 12:1-3 (KJV): 1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
                      Isaiah 26:12-14,19 (KJV): 12 LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us. 13 O LORD our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name. 14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
                      19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.


                      Kind regards
                      Trevor

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by TrevorL View Post
                        Greetings JohnnyP,

                        To add a few more verses to the discussion without answering or commenting on other verses already mentioned, the following seem to teach that the dead are not conscious, but have returned to dust. They await the resurrection when Christ returns:

                        till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

                        many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake
                        Talking about bodies asleep then awakened to Judgment, not spirits asleep.

                        Originally posted by TrevorL View Post
                        They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish
                        Talking about Annihilation in the Lake of Fire. If you are talking about before you are saying, they shall not rise for Judgment which doesn't make sense with Revelation 20:13.

                        Originally posted by TrevorL View Post
                        Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
                        Paraphrase: Revelation 20:15 And whosoever WAS found written in the book of life was NOT cast into the lake of fire.

                        What will you do with the Rich Man who was awake and suffering before Judgment, when his brothers were still alive on earth, if you say the dead are sleeping? That has Jesus talking gibberish.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Greetings again JohnnyP,

                          You are imposing your theology on each of the quotations and not allowing these verses to speak for themselves.
                          Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
                          Talking about bodies asleep then awakened to Judgment, not spirits asleep.
                          There is no mention of “spirits” in Genesis 3:17-19, nor in Daniel 12:1-3. Note it does not say “till your body returns unto the ground, but the real you, your immortal soul or spirit will leave your body and wend its way to heaven or hell or some temporary place.”
                          It simply says
                          Genesis 3:19 (KJV): till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

                          Neither is there any mention of “spirits” in Daniel 12:1-3. If they are asleep it means that their consciousness is asleep, a figure for total death. It does not mean that the consciousness of the body is asleep, while the “real” consciousness associated with an immortal soul or spirit is fully awake somewhere else.
                          It simply says
                          Daniel 12:2 (KJV): And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake

                          Talking about Annihilation in the Lake of Fire. If you are talking about before you are saying, they shall not rise for Judgment which doesn't make sense with Revelation 20:13.
                          In the context Isaiah 26:14 is speaking of those who are already perished and will not rise for judgement.

                          What will you do with the Rich Man who was awake and suffering before Judgment, when his brothers were still alive on earth, if you say the dead are sleeping? That has Jesus talking gibberish.
                          Jesus is using the beliefs of the Pharisees as a basis for this parable to teach them of their failure. Jesus names Lazarus and at the end speaks of resurrection. The Pharisees and Sadducees reacted to Lazarus’ resurrection seeking to kill both Jesus and Lazarus.

                          Kind regards
                          Trevor

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by TrevorL View Post
                            Greetings again JohnnyP,

                            You are imposing your theology on each of the quotations and not allowing these verses to speak for themselves.
                            There is no mention of “spirits” in Genesis 3:17-19, nor in Daniel 12:1-3. Note it does not say “till your body returns unto the ground, but the real you, your immortal soul or spirit will leave your body and wend its way to heaven or hell or some temporary place.”
                            It simply says
                            Genesis 3:19 (KJV): till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

                            Neither is there any mention of “spirits” in Daniel 12:1-3. If they are asleep it means that their consciousness is asleep, a figure for total death. It does not mean that the consciousness of the body is asleep, while the “real” consciousness associated with an immortal soul or spirit is fully awake somewhere else.
                            It simply says
                            Daniel 12:2 (KJV): And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake

                            In the context Isaiah 26:14 is speaking of those who are already perished and will not rise for judgement.

                            Jesus is using the beliefs of the Pharisees as a basis for this parable to teach them of their failure. Jesus names Lazarus and at the end speaks of resurrection. The Pharisees and Sadducees reacted to Lazarus’ resurrection seeking to kill both Jesus and Lazarus.

                            Kind regards
                            Trevor
                            Let's discuss Genesis first. Adam's body came from dust, but his soul came from the breath of God. So it seems you are imposing your theology to change what is said to mean, Adam's soul returns to dust from which it was taken.

                            Can you explain a contradiction of how Adam's soul from the breath of God suddenly makes its way back to dust from which it was taken?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Greetings again JohnnyP,
                              Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
                              Let's discuss Genesis first. Adam's body came from dust, but his soul came from the breath of God. So it seems you are imposing your theology to change what is said to mean, Adam's soul returns to dust from which it was taken.

                              Can you explain a contradiction of how Adam's soul from the breath of God suddenly makes its way back to dust from which it was taken?
                              Where does it say that Adam’s soul came from the breath of God? The Scriptural definition of Adam’s soul in Genesis is in the following:
                              Genesis 2:7 (KJV): And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

                              The Apostle Paul uses this quotation to contrast the natural body as man was created to the spiritual body that will be the result when man is changed from a mortal body to an immortal body by means of the resurrection.
                              1 Corinthians 15:42-46 (KJV): 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural (or soulical) body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural (or soulical) body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural (or soulical); and afterward that which is spiritual.
                              Please check Strong's for the link between the word "natural" and "soul".

                              Kind regards
                              Trevor

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                I would love to see a full thread discussing Annihilationism. I have met quite a few people who subscribe to it, and would love to discuss it further!

                                Comment

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