Soul Sleep, ECT, Annihilation: Are the dead conscious or not?

[JohnnyP]

Greetings again JohnnyP,

Where does it say that Adam’s soul came from the breath of God? The Scriptural definition of Adam’s soul in Genesis is in the following:
Genesis 2:7 (KJV): And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The Apostle Paul uses this quotation to contrast the natural body as man was created to the spiritual body that will be the result when man is changed from a mortal body to an immortal body by means of the resurrection.
1 Corinthians 15:42-46 (KJV): 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural (or soulical) body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural (or soulical) body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural (or soulical); and afterward that which is spiritual.
Please check Strong's for the link between the word "natural" and "soul".

Kind regards
Trevor

We are going to run into a problem if we too closely compare God's breath into Adam's body as a soul, vs. a person of God into a body as fully God/fully man.

At any rate, the cause of Adam's soul didn't come from dust, it came from God's breath. Therefore it is not consistent to suggest that Adam's soul was taken from dust, and should return to dust. God is not dust.

I would love to see a full thread discussing Annihilationism. I have met quite a few people who subscribe to it, and would love to discuss it further!

That is worth a thread of its own, I kind of started this to get some feet wet in a few ideas which can branch off into many discussions of different ideas.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again JohnnyP,

We are going to run into a problem if we too closely compare God's breath into Adam's body as a soul, vs. a person of God into a body as fully God/fully man.

I am not sure of what you are saying here. If someone has a wrong premise on the issue of “soul” then other problems follow, so I am initially willing to stay with Genesis and determine the foundation teaching.

At any rate, the cause of Adam's soul didn't come from dust, it came from God's breath. Therefore it is not consistent to suggest that Adam's soul was taken from dust, and should return to dust. God is not dust.

Again I am having difficulty with what you are saying here.
Genesis 2:7 (KJV): And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
As far as I can assess this passage disagrees with your statement. The Bible definition is that man is a living soul, not that he has a body with an immortal soul inside him.

The same phrase “living soul” is used for the animals as they were created in Genesis 1.
Genesis 1:21,24 (KJV): 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Please note that “living creature” is the same as “living soul” or “living being” NASB as descriptive of man in Genesis 2:7.

The animals also have the breath of life in their nostrils.
Genesis 6:17 (KJV): 17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
Genesis 7:21-22 (KJV): 21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: 22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

Kind regards
Trevor

[JohnnyP]

Greetings again JohnnyP,

I am not sure of what you are saying here. If someone has a wrong premise on the issue of “soul” then other problems follow, so I am initially willing to stay with Genesis and determine the foundation teaching.
Again I am having difficulty with what you are saying here.
Genesis 2:7 (KJV): And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
As far as I can assess this passage disagrees with your statement. The Bible definition is that man is a living soul, not that he has a body with an immortal soul inside him.

The same phrase “living soul” is used for the animals as they were created in Genesis 1.
Genesis 1:21,24 (KJV): 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Please note that “living creature” is the same as “living soul” or “living being” NASB as descriptive of man in Genesis 2:7.

The animals also have the breath of life in their nostrils.
Genesis 6:17 (KJV): 17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
Genesis 7:21-22 (KJV): 21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: 22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

Kind regards
Trevor

An initial problem is conflating breath of all other life, origin unstated, with breath of Adam, origin stated with God.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Further, the following may perhaps make a distinction, between all living things, and mankind:

Job 12:9 Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this?

Job 12:10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

[KingsGambit]

I would love to see a full thread discussing Annihilationism. I have met quite a few people who subscribe to it, and would love to discuss it further!

If you're interested, I'm in a Facebook group about discussing it.

[The Remonstrant]

I would love to see a full thread discussing Annihilationism. I have met quite a few people who subscribe to it, and would love to discuss it further!

This is because annihilationism is the truth.

(Oh, wait... the majority still subscribe to "the false view". My bad.)

[TrevorL]

Greetings again JohnnyP,

An initial problem is conflating breath of all other life, origin unstated, with breath of Adam, origin stated with God.

Are you suggesting that the animals’ breath of life did not come from God? God is clearly stated to be the creator of the animals and part of this creative process is to breathe into their nostrils the breath of life.

Further, the following may perhaps make a distinction, between all living things, and mankind:

Job 12:9-10 (KJV): 9 Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this? 10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.
This seems to be simply Hebrew poetic parallelism. A similar example is in the following:
Job 33:4 (KJV): The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

There is no hint in Genesis 2:7 that God breathed into Adam’s nostrils an immortal soul and such a concept is contrary to the language and teaching of these early chapters of Genesis.

Kind regards
Trevor

[JohnnyP]

Are you suggesting that the animals’ breath of life did not come from God? God is clearly stated to be the creator of the animals and part of this creative process is to breathe into their nostrils the breath of life.

There is no hint in Genesis 2:7 that God breathed into Adam’s nostrils an immortal soul and such a concept is contrary to the language and teaching of these early chapters of Genesis.

It doesn't actually state how animals got breath of life from God, as it does for Adam in Genesis 2:7, but man was different being made in the likeness of God, which I would not assume as relating to dust, but to his soul which has the ability to love, be lost in Hell, etc. Matthew 10:28, Matthew 16:26, Matthew 22:37. So where you said...

It does not mean that the consciousness of the body is asleep, while the “real” consciousness associated with an immortal soul or spirit is fully awake somewhere else.

...from cites in Matthew above and elsewhere, also...

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

...implies that the soul goes to Hell while physical body is in dust/grave.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again JohnnyP,

It doesn't actually state how animals got breath of life from God, as it does for Adam in Genesis 2:7, but man was different being made in the likeness of God, which I would not assume as relating to dust, but to his soul which has the ability to love, be lost in Hell, etc. Matthew 10:28, Matthew 16:26, Matthew 22:37. So where you said...

I believe that Adam was created with the mental and moral capacity to become like the Angels and God. The location of mankind’s mental and moral capacities is not located in an immaterial, immortal soul as speculated by Greek philosophers and adopted by corrupt “Christianity”. Mankind’s mental and moral capacities are located in the brain. I do not read “immortal soul” into any of these passages. It is contrary to the Genesis record.

...implies that the soul goes to Hell while physical body is in dust/grave.

Looking first at the OT passage that Peter was quoting:
Psalm 16:10 (KJV): For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
My “Enhanced Strong’s” says of the OT word used here for “hell” occurs 65 times and translated in the KJV as “grave” 31 times, “hell” 31 times and “pit” 3 times. I believe it should be translated “grave” in Psalm 16:10. This is another Hebrew poetic parallelism.

Acts 2:31 (KJV): He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
In the NT this word is translated “hell” 10 times, and “grave” once in 1 Corinthians 15:55.
1 Corinthians 15:55 (KJV): O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
I believe it should be translated “grave” in Acts 2:31.

Kind regards
Trevor

[JohnnyP]

Looking first at the OT passage that Peter was quoting:
Psalm 16:10 (KJV): For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
My “Enhanced Strong’s” says of the OT word used here for “hell” occurs 65 times and translated in the KJV as “grave” 31 times, “hell” 31 times and “pit” 3 times. I believe it should be translated “grave” in Psalm 16:10. This is another Hebrew poetic parallelism.

Acts 2:31 (KJV): He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
In the NT this word is translated “hell” 10 times, and “grave” once in 1 Corinthians 15:55.
1 Corinthians 15:55 (KJV): O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
I believe it should be translated “grave” in Acts 2:31.

See difference between Acts 2:31/hades vs. 1 Corinthians 15:55/thanatos.

Reading ahead in Psalms a little:

Psalms 18:5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.

Psalms 18:6 In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears.

A similar plea is found in Jonah:

Jonah 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

Jonah 2:5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.

Jonah 2:7 When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.

Where the fish is compared to Hell, Jonah still has his soul, and Jonah is conscious. Compare to:

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Which implies that Jesus in death was going to a place like Jonah was in, where people were conscious and had their souls in Hell, tying directly back to Psalms 16:10 and Acts 2:31. Thus I don't see any support that you should arbitrarily decide that they instead refer to the grave.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again JohnnyP,

See difference between Acts 2:31/hades vs. 1 Corinthians 15:55/thanatos.

In 1 Corinthians 15:55 the word “death” is from the Greek “thanatos”, but the word “grave” is from the Greek “hades”, the same word as in Acts 2:31.

You have given the following:

Reading ahead in Psalms a little:
Psalm 18:5-6 (KJV): 5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me. 6 In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears.

but I would prefer to compare this with the following where death and sheol are presented in a poetical parallelism, but the KJV has given this as the grave because they were reticent to reveal that in hell and death there is no conscious existence.
Psalm 6:5 (KJV): For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

A similar plea is found in Jonah:
Jonah 2:25,7 (KJV): 2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
7 When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.
Where the fish is compared to Hell, Jonah still has his soul, and Jonah is conscious. Compare to:
Matthew 12:40 (KJV): 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Which implies that Jesus in death was going to a place like Jonah was in, where people were conscious and had their souls in Hell, tying directly back to Psalms 16:10 and Acts 2:31. Thus I don't see any support that you should arbitrarily decide that they instead refer to the grave.

I have added the verses in the response to clarify. Yes an interesting parallel, but I cannot accept that because Jonah was conscious in the whale’s belly that this proves that Jesus and people are conscious in sheol / hades.

Kind regards
Trevor

[JohnnyP]

Greetings again JohnnyP,
In 1 Corinthians 15:55 the word “death” is from the Greek “thanatos”, but the word “grave” is from the Greek “hades”, the same word as in Acts 2:31.

You have given the following:
but I would prefer to compare this with the following where death and sheol are presented in a poetical parallelism, but the KJV has given this as the grave because they were reticent to reveal that in hell and death there is no conscious existence.
Psalm 6:5 (KJV): For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

I have added the verses in the response to clarify. Yes an interesting parallel, but I cannot accept that because Jonah was conscious in the whale’s belly that this proves that Jesus and people are conscious in sheol / hades.

Kind regards
Trevor

I still find it problematic that.

1. Jesus would tell the story about the Rich Man conscious in Hell, if the dead aren't conscious in Hell.
2. Jesus would compare his time in death to a place like Jonah was in, if the dead aren't conscious as Jonah was.

Even if we regard the first as a parable, his parables generally discuss things that really happen.

Additionally as Jonah was imprisoned in the "belly of sheol" we seemingly have Jesus going to a place like that after he was put to death:

1 Peter 3:18-19 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

[TrevorL]

Greetings again JohnnyP,

I appreciate your response. My position is based on a large amount of Scripture, then possibly viewing many of the Scriptures such as Acts 2:31 in a different way than is popular. Then I find a few “problem” passages such as the Rich Man and Lazarus, and 1 Peter 3:18-19. I could attempt to give a thorough explanation of these “problem” passages from my pov, but I am sure the explanation may satisfy myself, but would not convince you, especially as you seem to have rejected the verses and explanations that I have given in the first two categories. I am happy to have a rest from this thread at this stage, unless something obvious is mentioned or could be stated.

Kind regards
Trevor

[JohnnyP]

Thanks so far Trevor. I'll address Psalms 6:5 since I failed to as a reference to ultimate Annihilation and unconsciousness in the Lake of Fire if one is not saved from Hell before Judgment.

Which as Jonah was a type rescued from Hell as a purgatory where he was consciously repenting, one would go on to a fate of the Lake of Fire: in a manner of speaking, "stuck" Hell which is ultimately thrown into the Lake of Fire.

So to summarize, one is in Hell and conscious and asking for deliverance Psalms 16:10/Psalms 6:4/Jonah 2:2/Luke 16:24/etc., where without deliverance one goes into the Lake of Fire and unconsciousness Psalms 6:5.

Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psalms 6:4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake.

Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

[TrevorL]

Greetings again JohnnyP,

Despite my decision not to be further involved, I was listening to a recorded talk by a respected speaker and he made a comment in passing about those who believe in immortal souls. His comment was something to the effect that he did not know how a believer in immortal souls would explain the three occurrences of “soul” in the following, especially the first and third:
Isaiah 53:10-13 (KJV): 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

He also stated that there was a similar thought in the NT:
Mark 14:34 (KJV): And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.

His comment then is that these state that Jesus’ soul was made an offering for sin, that his soul was poured out unto death, and that before his death his soul was exceeding sorrowful unto death. My only comment is that we need to try to understand the full range of the meaning of a word in Scripture and I assume that you would understand that the above usage is not talking about the immortal soul of Jesus.

Kind regards
Trevor

[JohnnyP]

Greetings again JohnnyP,

Despite my decision not to be further involved, I was listening to a recorded talk by a respected speaker and he made a comment in passing about those who believe in immortal souls. His comment was something to the effect that he did not know how a believer in immortal souls would explain the three occurrences of “soul” in the following, especially the first and third:
Isaiah 53:10-13 (KJV): 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

He also stated that there was a similar thought in the NT:
Mark 14:34 (KJV): And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.

His comment then is that these state that Jesus’ soul was made an offering for sin, that his soul was poured out unto death, and that before his death his soul was exceeding sorrowful unto death. My only comment is that we need to try to understand the full range of the meaning of a word in Scripture and I assume that you would understand that the above usage is not talking about the immortal soul of Jesus.

Kind regards
Trevor

That is one way of interpreting it. Going back a little in the thread:

The Bible definition is that man is a living soul, not that he has a body with an immortal soul inside him.

There is no hint in Genesis 2:7 that God breathed into Adam’s nostrils an immortal soul and such a concept is contrary to the language and teaching of these early chapters of Genesis.

How would you treat this verse, what death would the soul be saved from?

James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.