Announcement

Collapse

Eschatology 201 Guidelines

This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Soul Sleep, ECT, Annihilation: Are the dead conscious or not?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
    Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
    Hi JohnnyP,

    ". . . in Sheol who shall give thee thanks?"

    I understand that from the point of view of the contrast of living under the sun as opposed to not. " . . . neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." -- Ecclesiastes 9:6.

    Or as referring the condition of the lost, ". . . And in Hades[Sheol] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, . . ." -- Luke 16:23.

    "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest Sheol, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains." -- Deuteronomy 32:22.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • #47
      Does the Hebrew really imply that David set foot in Sheol for even a second? I submit that David did not go there. Obviously, if he did not go to Sheol at all, it would also be true that God didn't "leave" him there.

      NET ©
      You will not abandon me 1 to Sheol; 2 you will not allow your faithful follower 3 to see 4 the Pit. 5

      NIV ©
      because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay.

      NASB ©
      For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.

      NLT ©
      For you will not leave my soul among the dead or allow your godly one to rot in the grave.

      MSG ©
      You canceled my ticket to hell--that's not my destination!

      BBE ©
      For you will not let my soul be prisoned in the underworld; you will not let your loved one see the place of death.

      NRSV ©
      For you do not give me up to Sheol, or let your faithful one see the Pit.

      NKJV ©
      For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.


      And if only the wicked go to Sheol, that would readily explain why none of them are giving thanks to God.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
        Here's a thread based on Brett's FB post, bringing it here. My own views to summarize:

        Those in Paradise and and Hades before Judgment are conscious, examples:

        PARADISE



        HADES





        Those in the Lake of Fire after Judgment are unconscious and not living at all, example:

        ANNIHILATION
        My own view (Which I believe is based on what is written in the Bible) is that dead people are not conscious. In order to have consciousness, a dead person would need to be raised to life again, in other words - Resurrected. I do not believe that dead people remain alive forever in hell being tormented alive forever while they are dead. I think that view is closer to Greek and Roman religions than it is to Judaism or Christianity. I know that a lot of Christians embrace the view that the lost are tormented alive forever in hell, I believe this is due to tradition more than deep theological study of the Bible.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
          Does the Hebrew really imply that David set foot in Sheol for even a second? I submit that David did not go there. Obviously, if he did not go to Sheol at all, it would also be true that God didn't "leave" him there.

          NET ©
          You will not abandon me 1 to Sheol; 2 you will not allow your faithful follower 3 to see 4 the Pit. 5

          NIV ©
          because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay.

          NASB ©
          For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.

          NLT ©
          For you will not leave my soul among the dead or allow your godly one to rot in the grave.

          MSG ©
          You canceled my ticket to hell--that's not my destination!

          BBE ©
          For you will not let my soul be prisoned in the underworld; you will not let your loved one see the place of death.

          NRSV ©
          For you do not give me up to Sheol, or let your faithful one see the Pit.

          NKJV ©
          For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.


          And if only the wicked go to Sheol, that would readily explain why none of them are giving thanks to God.
          Jesus finished the payment for sin on the cross (John 19:28, 30; Isaiah 53:6, 10, 12). And He did go to Sheol/Hades (see Acts 2:27; 1 Peter 3:18, 19; 4:6).

          My explanation still stands. Please feel free to offer a better understanding.
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • #50
            I would hold that Jesus finished his work on the cross, not the payment for sin.

            John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

            John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
              I would hold that Jesus finished his work on the cross, not the payment for sin.

              John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

              John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
              That sounds like heresy to me. Since I believe ". . . Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; . . . " -- Hebrews 9:28. ". . . For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, . . . " -- 1 Peter 3:18. I believe, Jesus bearing our sins said, ". . . My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? . . . And Jesus cried with a loud voice, . . . " -- Mark 15:34, 37. That John records what Jesus said in the loud voice, ". . . he said, It is finished: . . ." -- John 19:30. Jesus' relationship having been restored says, ". . . Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: . . . " -- Luke 23:45.
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Timothy View Post
                My own view (Which I believe is based on what is written in the Bible) is that dead people are not conscious. In order to have consciousness, a dead person would need to be raised to life again, in other words - Resurrected. I do not believe that dead people remain alive forever in hell being tormented alive forever while they are dead. I think that view is closer to Greek and Roman religions than it is to Judaism or Christianity. I know that a lot of Christians embrace the view that the lost are tormented alive forever in hell, I believe this is due to tradition more than deep theological study of the Bible.
                Do you understand the difference between Sheol/Hades and the eternal Gehenna fire? ". . . shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. . . . " -- Matthew 13:42. ". . . to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. . . . "-- Mark 9:47, 48. ". . . shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, . . ." -- Revelation 14:10, 11.
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • #53
                  The fire refers to hell.

                  Mark 9
                  47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
                  48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
                  49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

                  Leviticus 1
                  4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.
                  5 And he shall kill the bullock before the Lord: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
                  6 And he shall flay the burnt offering, and cut it into his pieces.
                  7 And the sons of Aaron the priest shall put fire upon the altar, and lay the wood in order upon the fire:
                  8 And the priests, Aaron's sons, shall lay the parts, the head, and the fat, in order upon the wood that is on the fire which is upon the altar:
                  9 But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the Lord.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                    The fire refers to hell.

                    Mark 9
                    47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
                    48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
                    49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

                    Leviticus 1
                    4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.
                    5 And he shall kill the bullock before the Lord: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
                    6 And he shall flay the burnt offering, and cut it into his pieces.
                    7 And the sons of Aaron the priest shall put fire upon the altar, and lay the wood in order upon the fire:
                    8 And the priests, Aaron's sons, shall lay the parts, the head, and the fat, in order upon the wood that is on the fire which is upon the altar:
                    9 But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the Lord.
                    Ok, what are you alluding to?
                    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      I'm not alluding to anything. I outright said it. Your view would propose a fireless sacrifice.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                        I'm not alluding to anything. I outright said it. Your view would propose a fireless sacrifice.
                        ". . . For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. . . . " is my view regarding Christ's finished redemption ON the cross. Which it seems you are denying here. So please be more explanatory as to what you mean.
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Yes, I'm denying that his redemption was finished on the cross. Only his life's work was finished on the cross. I say that he went to hell for three days, in the same way that the sacrifices were burnt. In the passage from Mark that I cited, Jesus specifically compared the burnt sacrifices to hell. What exactly am I saying that you find unclear?

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                            Yes, I'm denying that his redemption was finished on the cross. Only his life's work was finished on the cross. I say that he went to hell for three days, in the same way that the sacrifices were burnt. In the passage from Mark that I cited, Jesus specifically compared the burnt sacrifices to hell. What exactly am I saying that you find unclear?
                            What do you understand Jesus' life work to have been?

                            I believe Jesus went to hell/Hades/Sheol, the upper compartment, then Paradise for those three days. (Luke 23:43. Acts 2:27. 1 Peter 3:18, 19, 1 Peter 4:6. Paradise was moved, Acts 1:9, Ephesians 4:9, 10, 2 Corinthians 12:2-4.)

                            Explain your thinking. [I understand Jesus speaking of the lost, and the fire of the sacrifices under the Law represents this. Mark 9:49.]

                            I am not understand any justified argument to believe Jesus went to the place of fire in the pit the lower place in Hades/Sheol (Deuteronomy 32:22). Please explain how you come to your conclusion.
                            Last edited by 37818; 10-12-2014, 06:31 PM.
                            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                              Yes, I'm denying that his redemption was finished on the cross. Only his life's work was finished on the cross. I say that he went to hell for three days, in the same way that the sacrifices were burnt. In the passage from Mark that I cited, Jesus specifically compared the burnt sacrifices to hell. What exactly am I saying that you find unclear?
                              So when Christ said it was paid in full on the cross before He died he was lying For your information the greek word used for what we translate as "It is finished" was also one used when people had paid off their debts It was stamped or other wise put on the documents pertaining to their debt to show that they had finished paying it off. so why do you think it meant something different?

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                He didn't say it was paid in full. He said it was finished. I doubt that you are fluent in Greek. Don't pretend that you are.

                                There is no "upper compartment" of hell.

                                Furthermore, even if there were an upper compartment, Jesus clearly could not have gone there because Jesus was not alive. Jesus was dead.

                                Luke 16:23
                                And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

                                Matthew 22:32
                                I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

                                Revelation 1:18
                                I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

                                Jesus was in affliction:

                                Jonah 2
                                1 Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly,
                                2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

                                Finally I think your view completely trivializes the fact that old testament sacrifices were burnt by fire.

                                Comment

                                widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
                                Working...
                                X