Islamic Polygamy Rhetoric Totally Debunked

[Narnian]

The Koran states you are permitted to marry up to 4 wives and the argument is that there are more females in the world than males. But this is a myth:

15-64 years: 65.2% (male 2,152,066,888/female 2,100,334,722)
51,732,100 extra males in the world at marriageable age. https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications...xx.html#People

Even the worst war in history did not "culll" enough males to make polygamy justified;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WW2_casualties
In WWII, 24 million "military" died, leaving still another 26 million spare men!

Furthermore; Allah already creates waaaay more males

The ratio of births is 105 males to 100 females. So, if Allah intends the polygamous marriages for war situations, then why is Allah putting so many extra males in the world that even the worst war in history didn't unbalance the other way?

Point 3: Men are better off married

Using the same Islamic reasoning, it should be that some women marry an extra man. Science has even proven that single men suffer more health and emotional problems than do single women. Men find it hard to live without a woman.

Point 4: Men die younger and leave more females in old age

Men also die younger, and if polygamy was an institution that really did have the women's best interests in mind, then when a man with 4 wives dies, he leaves 4 elderly single women - then what? THEN there are more females, ie because males have died off; 65 years and over: 7.4% (male 213,160,216/female 270,146,721) - now what? Would YOU marry a 70 year old "free" female?

Point 5: Male domination is bad all round: Proof
This is the latest research study of women's oppression and overall quality of life of the family;

This is the 2006 report. Note that Islamic paradises are doing the worst;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/h...06SOWC2007.pdf

CONCLUSION:

Allah got his maths wrong, and if Allah got this wrong, then the whole "perfect" Koran is wrong.

I look forward to your comments

[Abelard]

[
Reasons are superflous in Islam. Muhammad said 3 wives was fine, ergo it is true.

[moose7237]

The Koran states you are permitted to marry up to 4 wives and the argument is that there are more females in the world than males. But this is a myth:

15-64 years: 65.2% (male 2,152,066,888/female 2,100,334,722)
51,732,100 extra males in the world at marriageable age. https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications...xx.html#People

Even the worst war in history did not "culll" enough males to make polygamy justified;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WW2_casualties
In WWII, 24 million "military" died, leaving still another 26 million spare men!

Furthermore; Allah already creates waaaay more males

The ratio of births is 105 males to 100 females. So, if Allah intends the polygamous marriages for war situations, then why is Allah putting so many extra males in the world that even the worst war in history didn't unbalance the other way?

Point 3: Men are better off married

Using the same Islamic reasoning, it should be that some women marry an extra man. Science has even proven that single men suffer more health and emotional problems than do single women. Men find it hard to live without a woman.

Point 4: Men die younger and leave more females in old age

Men also die younger, and if polygamy was an institution that really did have the women's best interests in mind, then when a man with 4 wives dies, he leaves 4 elderly single women - then what? THEN there are more females, ie because males have died off; 65 years and over: 7.4% (male 213,160,216/female 270,146,721) - now what? Would YOU marry a 70 year old "free" female?

Point 5: Male domination is bad all round: Proof
This is the latest research study of women's oppression and overall quality of life of the family;

This is the 2006 report. Note that Islamic paradises are doing the worst;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/h...06SOWC2007.pdf

CONCLUSION:

Allah got his maths wrong, and if Allah got this wrong, then the whole "perfect" Koran is wrong.

I look forward to your comments

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

I'm sorry to tell you, I think you are misunderstood. First let me post this verse talking about polygamy:

Let us look at Noble Verse 4:3 "If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice."

I'm pretty sure we can agree that all men are not capable of marrying 4 women and treating them justly.

Next what you must take into consideration is at what age is a girl and boy permitted to get married. The answer is when they have reached the age of puberty. What age does a girl reach puberty and at what age does a male reach puberty? I think for a girl its like at 9 to 11 and a boy is about 13 to 15 or so. So you must take into account girls about 10+ and boys about 14+ are permitted to get married. Lastly, the figures you reported might be true, but what you forgot to say is that a man is not allowed to marry and unbeliever. So you must say, okay what percentage of women are jews, Christians (non-trinitarians) and Muslims. A muslim man is not allowed to marry a non-believing woman, and a woman is not allowed to marry a non believing man. So when you can come up with the numbers of how many male and female theists believing in only one God and not associating any partners to him(trinitarians) and how old they are from about 10+ for female and 14+ for male, then I we can take this conversation further.

Even though you did show that there are many more men then woman in the world, you have to take into consideration their religious backgrounds. Islamicly, no man can marry any woman of any religion, and vice versa. Also you have to take into consideration that it is very hard to practice polygamy because you have to be totally fair to each wife if you cannot then you are committing a sin and you are forbidden to practice polygamy. Hope this helps and take care. Have a happy and peaceful holiday Narnian.

[Narnian]

Let us look at Noble Verse 4:3 "If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice."

Right, so why bother with this verse anyway? Why waste pen and paper to tell something that is totally common sense for even the most simple of people!

Next what you must take into consideration is at what age is a girl and boy permitted to get married. The answer is when they have reached the age of puberty. What age does a girl reach puberty and at what age does a male reach puberty? I think for a girl its like at 9 to 11 and a boy is about 13 to 15 or so.

9-11? What a load of rubbish! For me it was age 14 and for all of my friends during that era it was around 13, and one or 2 at the age of 12, which we were shocked about. As for being ready for marriage; you must be joking!!!! Boy has Islam twisted your mind

So you must take into account girls about 10+ and boys about 14+ are permitted to get married.

Please explain HOW this magically changes the amount of males to females being born?

The only way you are going to get everyone partnered for as long as possible, using Islamic logic, and statistics, is for every woman to marry a man 10-15 years younger than her, and for 5% of women to marry one extra man. So, 5 in every 100 women would have 2 husbands. That would keep everyone married in the world. Mathematically, there is no other possible version.

Lastly, the figures you reported might be true, but what you forgot to say is that a man is not allowed to marry and unbeliever. So you must say, okay what percentage of women are jews, Christians (non-trinitarians) and Muslims. A muslim man is not allowed to marry a non-believing woman, and a woman is not allowed to marry a non believing man.

Again this is nonesense, muslim men ARE allowed to marry non muslims. In fact the Muhammad had an assortment in his "harem", ie at least one christian and a Jew. Taqqiya doesn't work on me

Besides, it is inhumane to ban people marrying who they want, despite religion.

So when you can come up with the numbers of how many male and female theists believing in only one God and not associating any partners to him(trinitarians) and how old they are from about 10+ for female and 14+ for male, then I we can take this conversation further.

This is SO absurd - you think that Allah produces a nice round figure of 100 men to 100 women (or more) only in the "believer" sections of the population? ... just so as to prove Islam right?

I'm really enjoying this lunatic debate

Have a happy and peaceful holiday Narnian.

OK, I hope that wink meant that you are joking all along

We say Merry Christmas where I live, so a Merry Chirstmas to you! I hope you catch the real spirit of Christ's birth.

[JSDileo]

The Koran states you are permitted to marry up to 4 wives and the argument is that there are more females in the world than males. But this is a myth:

15-64 years: 65.2% (male 2,152,066,888/female 2,100,334,722)
51,732,100 extra males in the world at marriageable age. https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications...xx.html#People

Even the worst war in history did not "culll" enough males to make polygamy justified;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WW2_casualties
In WWII, 24 million "military" died, leaving still another 26 million spare men!

Furthermore; Allah already creates waaaay more males

The ratio of births is 105 males to 100 females. So, if Allah intends the polygamous marriages for war situations, then why is Allah putting so many extra males in the world that even the worst war in history didn't unbalance the other way?

Point 3: Men are better off married

Using the same Islamic reasoning, it should be that some women marry an extra man. Science has even proven that single men suffer more health and emotional problems than do single women. Men find it hard to live without a woman.

Point 4: Men die younger and leave more females in old age

Men also die younger, and if polygamy was an institution that really did have the women's best interests in mind, then when a man with 4 wives dies, he leaves 4 elderly single women - then what? THEN there are more females, ie because males have died off; 65 years and over: 7.4% (male 213,160,216/female 270,146,721) - now what? Would YOU marry a 70 year old "free" female?

Point 5: Male domination is bad all round: Proof
This is the latest research study of women's oppression and overall quality of life of the family;

This is the 2006 report. Note that Islamic paradises are doing the worst;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/h...06SOWC2007.pdf

CONCLUSION:

Allah got his maths wrong, and if Allah got this wrong, then the whole "perfect" Koran is wrong.

I look forward to your comments

Err, I'd hate to burst your bubble with a Christian resource, but...

http://www.tektonics.org/lp/polygamy.html

[mastralvarado]

Let us look at Noble Verse 4:3 "If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice."

Right, so why bother with this verse anyway? Why waste pen and paper to tell something that is totally common sense for even the most simple of people!

Next what you must take into consideration is at what age is a girl and boy permitted to get married. The answer is when they have reached the age of puberty. What age does a girl reach puberty and at what age does a male reach puberty? I think for a girl its like at 9 to 11 and a boy is about 13 to 15 or so.

9-11? What a load of rubbish! For me it was age 14 and for all of my friends during that era it was around 13, and one or 2 at the age of 12, which we were shocked about. As for being ready for marriage; you must be joking!!!! Boy has Islam twisted your mind

So you must take into account girls about 10+ and boys about 14+ are permitted to get married.

Please explain HOW this magically changes the amount of males to females being born?

The only way you are going to get everyone partnered for as long as possible, using Islamic logic, and statistics, is for every woman to marry a man 10-15 years younger than her, and for 5% of women to marry one extra man. So, 5 in every 100 women would have 2 husbands. That would keep everyone married in the world. Mathematically, there is no other possible version.

Lastly, the figures you reported might be true, but what you forgot to say is that a man is not allowed to marry and unbeliever. So you must say, okay what percentage of women are jews, Christians (non-trinitarians) and Muslims. A muslim man is not allowed to marry a non-believing woman, and a woman is not allowed to marry a non believing man.

Again this is nonesense, muslim men ARE allowed to marry non muslims. In fact the Muhammad had an assortment in his "harem", ie at least one christian and a Jew. Taqqiya doesn't work on me

Besides, it is inhumane to ban people marrying who they want, despite religion.

So when you can come up with the numbers of how many male and female theists believing in only one God and not associating any partners to him(trinitarians) and how old they are from about 10+ for female and 14+ for male, then I we can take this conversation further.

This is SO absurd - you think that Allah produces a nice round figure of 100 men to 100 women (or more) only in the "believer" sections of the population? ... just so as to prove Islam right?

I'm really enjoying this lunatic debate

Have a happy and peaceful holiday Narnian.

OK, I hope that wink meant that you are joking all along

We say Merry Christmas where I live, so a Merry Chirstmas to you! I hope you catch the real spirit of Christ's birth.

Let's see:
Santa Claus.
Xmas tree.
Statues of deceased people.

Where are all of the baby Jesus's look-alikes when you need them as an extra bonus in the whole Christmas package?

[moose7237]

Let us look at Noble Verse 4:3 "If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice."

Right, so why bother with this verse anyway? Why waste pen and paper to tell something that is totally common sense for even the most simple of people!

Next what you must take into consideration is at what age is a girl and boy permitted to get married. The answer is when they have reached the age of puberty. What age does a girl reach puberty and at what age does a male reach puberty? I think for a girl its like at 9 to 11 and a boy is about 13 to 15 or so.

9-11? What a load of rubbish! For me it was age 14 and for all of my friends during that era it was around 13, and one or 2 at the age of 12, which we were shocked about. As for being ready for marriage; you must be joking!!!! Boy has Islam twisted your mind

So you must take into account girls about 10+ and boys about 14+ are permitted to get married.

Please explain HOW this magically changes the amount of males to females being born?

The only way you are going to get everyone partnered for as long as possible, using Islamic logic, and statistics, is for every woman to marry a man 10-15 years younger than her, and for 5% of women to marry one extra man. So, 5 in every 100 women would have 2 husbands. That would keep everyone married in the world. Mathematically, there is no other possible version.

Lastly, the figures you reported might be true, but what you forgot to say is that a man is not allowed to marry and unbeliever. So you must say, okay what percentage of women are jews, Christians (non-trinitarians) and Muslims. A muslim man is not allowed to marry a non-believing woman, and a woman is not allowed to marry a non believing man.

Again this is nonesense, muslim men ARE allowed to marry non muslims. In fact the Muhammad had an assortment in his "harem", ie at least one christian and a Jew. Taqqiya doesn't work on me

Besides, it is inhumane to ban people marrying who they want, despite religion.

So when you can come up with the numbers of how many male and female theists believing in only one God and not associating any partners to him(trinitarians) and how old they are from about 10+ for female and 14+ for male, then I we can take this conversation further.

This is SO absurd - you think that Allah produces a nice round figure of 100 men to 100 women (or more) only in the "believer" sections of the population? ... just so as to prove Islam right?

I'm really enjoying this lunatic debate

Have a happy and peaceful holiday Narnian.

OK, I hope that wink meant that you are joking all along

We say Merry Christmas where I live, so a Merry Chirstmas to you! I hope you catch the real spirit of Christ's birth.

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

Firstly, how is this in any way common sense? How is it common sense that you are allowed to marry up to 4 wives only? Is this an instinct every man is born with? Also how is it common sense that if you can't treat all your wives equally you are only limited to one? A lot of men would favor one over the other and still keep for example, all 4 of their wives. This is anything but common sense my friend.

About 3 months ago, I was reading an article about a 9 year old Thai girl that gave birth. So she must have reached puberty somewhere along those lines. Let me post what a site put about girls hitting puberty:

Puberty is the time in a girl's life when her body changes from that of a young girl to that of a woman. It is also the time when a girl becomes physically able to have babies. Although there is no "right" time for puberty to begin, it generally starts earlier for a girl than it does for a boy - usually between 9 and 13 years of age. This is why many girls are taller and may act more mature than boys for a few years until the boys catch up.

http://www.teenpuberty.com/index.php...age=femchanges

You and your friends are different, but the average is from 9 to 13 like I mentioned. No, I don't see a problem for people who have reached puberty to get married. Firstly, would you agree that the sexual desire is the strongest desire of all? I would say so. By the time I first hit puberty, and all other males, we wanted to have intercourse. I see no problem in making a person hold that in. Maybe that's why you see teens going off and having premarital sex, its a desire, and God never said at what age you need to get married. When it hits puberty, I see no problem with it. In fact, I think it should be encouraged, so a male or female wouldn't do anything sinful, such as look at pornographic images or do things even worse.

I never said it would magically change the amount of females to males being born, but not every man is going to marry up to 4 wives. In fact it is encouraged a man marries only 1 because marrying 4 is tough, all have to be treated equally. Firstly, Islam is not talking about the world, because Allah knows not every person is a believer in him. Like I said in my previous post, you can only marry a muslim, jew, christian, or theists that acknowledges the one true God and associates no partners with him.

I think I mentioned that muslim men are allowed to marry non muslims, BUT the can't marry an unbeliever in th e one true God. Yes men are allowed to marry a christian (non-trinitarian) and a jew. I think I said a woman is allowed to marry a christian or Jew, I'm sorry for that, she is only allowed to marry a muslim man. Please give evidence that Muhammad had a "harem". Please I would like to see that.

Islam does put limits on who you can or can't marry. BUT Islam gives you the permission to choose any religion you want, so if you don't like the rules of Islam you are more than free to choose another faith for that matter. BUT people CHOOSE to follow the rules of Islam because they fear their creator.

No I don't think Allah produces a nice round number. I truly don't know why there is more men than women, there is a lot I don't know, but that is his choice. BUT I haven't seen a man or woman say "jee there are no more single believers in the world anymore, they are all married and I am the only single person" I can tell you that hasn't happened. So everybody is happy.

Also to note, when this verse of polygamy was revealed, as tecktonics.org has it, thanks to the person who posted the site, here is the explanation of that verse and its revelation time:

* Polygamy was Muhammed's solution to the problem of orphans and widows. Men who died for whatever reason left behind sisters, daughters, and other relatives who needed protection. New guardians might not be scrupulous about administering the property of orphans and might even try to keep women unmarried so they could keep the of the deceased husband property. Polygamy allowed an already-married guardian with better interests for the survivors to step in, in an era before there were social, legal and governmental organizations to take up the case. Obviously these conditions applied in the earlier world of the ANE as well.
* Armstrong notes that there was probably a shortage of men in Arabia in Muhammed's era, "which left a surplus of unmarried women who were often badly exploited." Such women in the ANE found themselves compelled to take up a life of prostitution, and less scrupulous persons may resort to female infanticide.

[Narnian]

>Firstly, how is this in any way common sense?

You said that verse 4.3 was to tell believers that, if they couldn't treat all women fairly, don't marry more than one. Then you said that it would be an impossibility anyway, so in other words that verse is saying "don't marry more than one or you can't treat them fairly".

But my whole point is that there is no need to marry more than one female. According to Islamic ideology, the intention is in order for everyone to be paired up, with world statistics in mind, all women should marry a man 10 years younger and 5% of all women should marry 2 men.

However, if the Koran's idea of polygamy ISN"T about making sure everyone is paired, then what is it about??


>By the time I first hit puberty, and all other males, we wanted to have intercourse.

Right, for boys, yes, but this is NOT the experience of girls. Girls wake up sexually much, much later. Puberty does NOT mean they want sex. This is a very common misconception with men - they think that because when THEY hit puberty all they remember is the constant urge, which I've heard is very strong in teen boys, they think that "well, girls must be having this same urge as well". WRONG!!!!! Ask any woman, who was not sexually abused or in a crowd of teens that pushed sex, what their experience of puberty was like. If you can't take my word for it, I will try and find you some evidence.

>In fact, I think it should be encouraged, so a male or female wouldn't do anything >sinful, such as look at pornographic images or do things even worse.

So, the reason for marriage is to bonk each other stupid so the boy isn't tempted to look at porn??? Should some poor girl will be subjected to his extreme demands for sex during teen years?

What a way to live .... and what a male chauvenist, male dominated point of view, world we live in

>Polygamy was Muhammed's solution to the problem of orphans and widows.

As demonstrated by statistics, God is already producing 5 extra males for every 100 females being born. So, those widows should be able to find a male male, or even two.

You have failed to prove anything - all you have done is try to side track the debate when the proof is in statistics and science. Allah has totally failed mathematically on this one, but you remain with your head in the sand despite this major hole in Islamic ideology.

[Dee Dee Warren]

As much as I respect JP, I don't find his conclusions convincing.

* Polygamy was Muhammed's solution to the problem of orphans and widows. Men who died for whatever reason left behind sisters, daughters, and other relatives who needed protection. New guardians might not be scrupulous about administering the property of orphans and might even try to keep women unmarried so they could keep the of the deceased husband property. Polygamy allowed an already-married guardian with better interests for the survivors to step in, in an era before there were social, legal and governmental organizations to take up the case. Obviously these conditions applied in the earlier world of the ANE as well.

There is nothing inherent in some already-married guardian to better look out for the widow's interest than a single one. And if there were singles ones, that eliminates the whole "shortage of men" argument. This is implosive IMHO. The only way that there would be some sort of built in inclination to take better care of the widow, and this wasn't a guarantee (ala Onan) was the concept of Levirate marriage.

[Narnian]

Err, I'd hate to burst your bubble with a Christian resource, but...

http://www.tektonics.org/lp/polygamy.html

Oh no, because I'm a christian I have to believe in polygamy because King David etc had more than one wife!

sarcasm off

>Armstrong notes that there was probably a shortage of men in Arabia in >Muhammed's era, "which left a surplus of unmarried women who were often >badly exploited."

There is absolutely NO evidence of this whatsoever, and in fact there would be more evidence of the contrary - God was highly likely still producing 5 extra males per 100 females. There were no WMD in those days, like there are today, so you would have to "culll" these extra males by hand, ie with a sword or knife. There were no guns remember. Karen Armstrong is a novelist, she is not an historian. She failed her PhD thesis and she has about the same qualifications as I have. To get a book published you have to say something that differs from the norm, so she chose to argue that Muhammad was somehow benign, when all evidence points to a murdering psychopath.

JP Holding has only quoted Armstrong and argued that the social conditions made it necessary, but he produces no evidence whatsoever. This article is just a waste of space.

SA today has a large male overpopulation;

Gender population in Saudi Arabia according to age group Age group (years) Percentage Number of Males Number of Females
0-14 38.2% 5,261,530 5,059,041
15-64 59.4% 9,159,519 6,895,616
65 and over 2.4% 342,020 302,005
http://www.wikiislam.com/w/index.php...ygyny_in_Islam


>The matter is not that simple; the practice would almost certainly be >repugnant in our modern nation, because none of the social conditions exist >which exert a moral influence making polygamy a "necessary evil."

Well, why aren't 5 out of 100 women marrying an extra man as a "necessary evil" today, using the same logic???

The bottom line is this; we do NOT need to get married in order to "control ourselves". We have Christ to turn to - he in turns fills us with the strength and courage we need to develop our brains past "puberty". Sex is not a need. Love is, food, is, water is, shelter is.

One more thing - women should be treated well whether or not they are married - they deserve respect.

Will society fall to pieces if a few million men die in a war? Look at post WW2 europe. After 24 million men died, post WW2 europe experienced the biggest growth in history. If you look at the rise of the GPI, it goes from a horizontal line to an almost vertical one.

So, there goes another one. Bottom line - the Koran got it wrong.

[heisonly1]

Narnian -The Koran states you are permitted to marry up to 4 wives and the argument is that there are more females in the world than males. But this is a myth:

Greetings,

Just a quick comment for now. The provision of polygamy in Islam is not solely offered/applicable with the erroneous assumption/condition that more women may out number men in some countries. Any Muslim that makes such a claim is totally ignorant of the wider scope that Polygamy offers as a solution to many /personal/domestic/social/cultural problems that exist.

The female population outnumbered the male population in most counties in 2000. At the county level, the female population outnumbered the male population in most counties. Of the 3,141 counties and equivalent areas, the number of counties with a greater female population was 2,305 representing 73 percent of all counties and equivalent areas. About 42 percent or 1,315 counties and equivalent areas had male-female ratios below the U.S. male-female ratio of 96.3.

- http://nationalatlas.gov/articles/people/a_gender.html

There are many more benefits to polygamy than catering for women that may desire husbands within their cultural religious social setting within their locality/ country where the male population is relatively lower.

I'll give some specific actual case senarios that demonstrate the legitimate applicability of polygamy when I get the time.

15-64 years: 65.2% (male 2,152,066,888/female 2,100,334,722)
51,732,100 extra males in the world at marriageable age. https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications...xx.html#People

I predict with World War Three on the way this will indeed drastically change before the final hour.



According to Sahih Bukhari - Volume 8, Book 82, Number 800i:

Narrated Anas: I will narrate to you a narration which nobody will narrate to you after me. I heard that form the Prophet. I heard the Prophet saying, "From among the portents of the Hour is that the religious knowledge will betaken away (by the death of religious Scholars) and general ignorance (of religion) will appear; and the drinking of alcoholic drinks will be very common, and (open) illegal sexual intercourse will prevail, and men will decrease in number while women will increase so much so that, for fifty women there will only be one man to look after them."

to be continued............

[Narnian]

Just a quick comment for now. The provision of polygamy in Islam is not solely offered/applicable with the erroneous assumption/condition that more women may out number men in some countries. Any Muslim that makes such a claim is totally ignorant of the wider scope that Polygamy offers as a solution to many /personal/domestic/social/cultural problems that exist.

Hi heisonly1, and a Merry Christmas to you. I look forward to hearing the other reasons for polygamy.

- http://nationalatlas.gov/articles/people/a_gender.html

There ARE more females in some places ..... but there's a catch; they are all over the age of 65! Would you marry one of these widows?

The female population is more ONLY in the older age group.

From the CIA world website:

15-64 years: 1.03 male(s)/female
65 years and over: 0.79 male(s)/female

From the American website;

from 105.1 in the age group 15 to 24 years
92.2 for the age group 55 to 64 (see Figure 3)

In America you are better off, with a few spare women over the age of 55, about 7 extra women per 100 men.

But in child bearing age, there are still 5 extra men per 100 women!

Men have poorer health than women and they die off quicker - around 10 years before their female counterparts, leaving a large older population of single women.

I predict with World War Three on the way this will indeed drastically change before the final hour.

I take it you are assuming that the bigger the war, the more soldiers are needed? Wrong. Wars these days involve technology.

There has been an estimated 660,000 deaths (which includes civilians) of US, coalition and Iraqis since the war began 3 years ago. In WWII there were 24 MILLION and 2 BILLION in total during 3 years.

WWIII, if it ever occurs, will either involve technology with minimal casualties, OR it will involve a nuclear bomb exploding on a highly populated area. In the latter case you will end up with equal male and female deaths, probably more female, since they are more vulnerable this way, ie not fast runners etc.

According to Sahih Bukhari - Volume 8, Book 82, Number 800i:

Narrated Anas: .... I heard the Prophet saying, ".... and men will decrease in number while women will increase so much so that, for fifty women there will only be one man to look after them."

Hilarious, thanks.

to be continued............[/QUOTE]

I look forward to it

[moose7237]

>Firstly, how is this in any way common sense?

You said that verse 4.3 was to tell believers that, if they couldn't treat all women fairly, don't marry more than one. Then you said that it would be an impossibility anyway, so in other words that verse is saying "don't marry more than one or you can't treat them fairly".

But my whole point is that there is no need to marry more than one female. According to Islamic ideology, the intention is in order for everyone to be paired up, with world statistics in mind, all women should marry a man 10 years younger and 5% of all women should marry 2 men.

However, if the Koran's idea of polygamy ISN"T about making sure everyone is paired, then what is it about??


>By the time I first hit puberty, and all other males, we wanted to have intercourse.

Right, for boys, yes, but this is NOT the experience of girls. Girls wake up sexually much, much later. Puberty does NOT mean they want sex. This is a very common misconception with men - they think that because when THEY hit puberty all they remember is the constant urge, which I've heard is very strong in teen boys, they think that "well, girls must be having this same urge as well". WRONG!!!!! Ask any woman, who was not sexually abused or in a crowd of teens that pushed sex, what their experience of puberty was like. If you can't take my word for it, I will try and find you some evidence.

>In fact, I think it should be encouraged, so a male or female wouldn't do anything >sinful, such as look at pornographic images or do things even worse.

So, the reason for marriage is to bonk each other stupid so the boy isn't tempted to look at porn??? Should some poor girl will be subjected to his extreme demands for sex during teen years?

What a way to live .... and what a male chauvenist, male dominated point of view, world we live in

>Polygamy was Muhammed's solution to the problem of orphans and widows.

As demonstrated by statistics, God is already producing 5 extra males for every 100 females being born. So, those widows should be able to find a male male, or even two.

You have failed to prove anything - all you have done is try to side track the debate when the proof is in statistics and science. Allah has totally failed mathematically on this one, but you remain with your head in the sand despite this major hole in Islamic ideology.

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

I think the biggest issue here is you fail to understand what type of people a muslim man can marry. I have said this over and over again and you simply brush it off, A MUSLIM MAN CAN ONLY MARRY A BELIEVING WOMAN. A believing woman is one who believes in only one God. So clearly, you are trying to disprove the Quran, while completely skipping this important fact. I can't marry a pagan or a polytheist. Get your numbers based on this fact as well. Also, have you even considered people who can't get married? For example if they have some sort of disability? Maybe they're in a comma or something. Also, you have totally ignored the fact that some people are homosexuals, so they are not interested in being "paired up" with the opposite sex. In America, 10% of men are gay and 5% of women are gay, so there goes a significant number of males to be married to females. Yes Allah knows how many males and females he has created, but it never means that every single person is going to magically get married. Also, you are trying to make it seem like every man is going to marry at least more than one woman so the Quran is wrong because there aren't enough women. This is completely false.

Next, to my so called male dominated point of view:

There is nothing wrong with marriage to fulfill your needs. I'm not saying this is the only reason one should get married. I'm saying the biggest reason for marriage is to fulfill your sexual desire. I think Paul said the same exact thing:

1 Corinthians 7:1-2

1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. 2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

1 Corinthians 7:8-9
"To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, THEY SHOULD MARRY. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion."

Jee wiz, I guess the bible is a male dominated point of view as well. To expose your hypocracy, (I'm not saying that you are a hypocrite, but I'm just guessing here) I bet if you saw these verses, you would never have called them a male dominated because its in the bible right?

Now by the time boys hit puberty, girls have already gone through puberty, so at age 14 or 15 or so, I'm quite sure girls want to engage in intercourse. When I was in the 8th grade or so, it was like that. Boyfriend and Girlfriends were very common and intimate as well. You may disagree but thats the way it actually is.

When the polygamy verse was revealed, it was during wars and such, so its natural that polygamy was practiced. AND it was also taking place before Islam such as in the King Davids or Solomon's time. Yes there were plenty of widows back then because of wars, so it was natural for a man to take more than 1 woman to be his wife.

Well that's all for now, take care! And sorry to offend you if I did in any way.

[Narnian]

Moose, dear, can you provide proof that God creates less muslim, jewish and christian males, as well as more disabled males?

>I bet if you saw these verses, you would never have called them a male dominated >because its in the bible right?

Huh? It doesn't say that the man should have more than one wife! Plus it mentions the woman's side as well as the males. It should be mutual.

>so at age 14 or 15 or so, I'm quite sure girls want to engage in intercourse.

How do you know? Are you a girl? I am a girl (middle aged woman now) Girls do not really get interested in sex until they reach late teens, even early 20s, some even later than that. Most are not orgasmic until much later. I know this both from close relationships with girls all my life, and from knowing myself. As I said, there ARE girls who engage in sex at a young age, but they have been pressured and/or woken up early by abuse or peer pressure. Even then they are not like boys, thinking about it all the time, and probably even hate the sex they are subjected to.

Girls are interested in boys "romantically" - they daydream of being whisked away by a prince on a white horse etc, but this is not sexual.

>In America, 10% of men are gay

2003 report by Statistics Canada indicated that among Canadians aged 18 to 59, 1% reported that they are homosexual
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality#Incidence

>When the polygamy verse was revealed, it was during wars and such, so its natural >that polygamy was practiced. AND it was also taking place before Islam such as in >the King Davids or Solomon's time. Yes there were plenty of widows back then >because of wars, so it was natural for a man to take more than 1 woman to be his >wife.

I have already answered this; if God was still producing 5 extra males per 100 females, as is most likely, and there were no weapons of mass destruction in those days, you would have a hard time cullling all those extra males with only a sword, to create extra females.

Besides, the above is the Bandwagon fallacy - if David and Solomon or Mo did it, then it must be right. If everyone is stealing, then it must be right. David, Solomon and Mo were all sinners.

>Well that's all for now, take care! And sorry to offend you if I did in any way.

I want truth and honesty from you, not "inoffense"!

I still do not have an adequate answer - you have only come up with absurdities like God producing more females in the "believer" category.

So, the inconvenient facts remain - God produces 5 extra males per 100 females, yet the Koran talks about taking up to 4 wives, leaving some men without wives. God also produces men who have more emotional weaknesses, ie illhealth and emotional issues, which are helped by marriage. But women do equally well with or without a man. Finally, as demonstrated by the latest stats, muslim countries are doing the worst due to male domination. Allah makes males worth twice that of females, yet his male dominated world is falling apart.

You still haven't answered me - would you take on a 65 year old widow who had lost her husband, as your wife now?

[moose7237]

Moose, dear, can you provide proof that God creates less muslim, jewish and christian males, as well as more disabled males?

>I bet if you saw these verses, you would never have called them a male dominated >because its in the bible right?

Huh? It doesn't say that the man should have more than one wife! Plus it mentions the woman's side as well as the males. It should be mutual.

>so at age 14 or 15 or so, I'm quite sure girls want to engage in intercourse.

How do you know? Are you a girl? I am a girl (middle aged woman now) Girls do not really get interested in sex until they reach late teens, even early 20s, some even later than that. Most are not orgasmic until much later. I know this both from close relationships with girls all my life, and from knowing myself. As I said, there ARE girls who engage in sex at a young age, but they have been pressured and/or woken up early by abuse or peer pressure. Even then they are not like boys, thinking about it all the time, and probably even hate the sex they are subjected to.

Girls are interested in boys "romantically" - they daydream of being whisked away by a prince on a white horse etc, but this is not sexual.

>In America, 10% of men are gay

2003 report by Statistics Canada indicated that among Canadians aged 18 to 59, 1% reported that they are homosexual
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality#Incidence

>When the polygamy verse was revealed, it was during wars and such, so its natural >that polygamy was practiced. AND it was also taking place before Islam such as in >the King Davids or Solomon's time. Yes there were plenty of widows back then >because of wars, so it was natural for a man to take more than 1 woman to be his >wife.

I have already answered this; if God was still producing 5 extra males per 100 females, as is most likely, and there were no weapons of mass destruction in those days, you would have a hard time cullling all those extra males with only a sword, to create extra females.

Besides, the above is the Bandwagon fallacy - if David and Solomon or Mo did it, then it must be right. If everyone is stealing, then it must be right. David, Solomon and Mo were all sinners.

>Well that's all for now, take care! And sorry to offend you if I did in any way.

I want truth and honesty from you, not "inoffense"!

I still do not have an adequate answer - you have only come up with absurdities like God producing more females in the "believer" category.

So, the inconvenient facts remain - God produces 5 extra males per 100 females, yet the Koran talks about taking up to 4 wives, leaving some men without wives. God also produces men who have more emotional weaknesses, ie illhealth and emotional issues, which are helped by marriage. But women do equally well with or without a man. Finally, as demonstrated by the latest stats, muslim countries are doing the worst due to male domination. Allah makes males worth twice that of females, yet his male dominated world is falling apart.

You still haven't answered me - would you take on a 65 year old widow who had lost her husband, as your wife now?

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

Personally I couldn't find such information friend, if you are trying to use Islamic polygamy as your basis, and using Islam's rules of marriage, then you must know, as stated in the Quran, a muslim man can marry only a monotheist in God and not an idol. So you can't just take the world population and try to disprove Islam and say Allah has made a mathematical error. You have to do more research and see who a person is allowed to marry and who they are not allowed to marry according to Islamic Law.

How do I know that at age 13 or 14 girls want to engage in sex? At this point both of us are just using past personal experiences to prove a point, you are using yourself and your friends, and I am using my past middle school experiences. I don't know if its pressure or not. But I'm saying when you reach puberty, I'm sure even in girls, you feel some sort of sexual urge, whether it be intercourse, or the shape of a male's/females body. At puberty that's when you are able to reproduce. So neither of us can speak for every single female in every single society. American society may differ from a european society on when Girls become sexually active. Personally, I don't know where to search this sort of stuff at. If you can give me some sites or suggested searches, I will do what I can to find out more about how many girls are involved in early teen sex. And clearly, I'm sure you don't have evidence that the only reason girls engage in early teen sex is because of pressure, some might want to do it for themselves because the urge is there.

This is the American way of thinking about "romance". I don't know if you can speak for every country, and I don't know if you can speak for every girl. Unless you have statistics, I personally can't say that you're right on dreaming of guys romantically and not sexually. Even though they find the guy romantically, eventually, and I'm sure its less than a year, both might come to terms to engage in sex even in early teen years. But I can't say this for sure if there aren't any statistics.

No there weren't any weapons of mass destruction in those times, but in those times, only men were on the front line fighting from what I know and not women. And if you have ever seen a battlefield, a lot of men die. So in that time, when there were battles such as badr and khaybar, there weren't women in the military fighting but men. So a lot of men were killed and not too many women. Also during Muhammad's time, the woman was mainly a person taking care of the house and the kids, while the man worked to make money, so if the man died, the woman can't work, so another man would marry her to give her shelter. During wars a lot of this happened.

if Muhammad did it, I feel ok to do it. Besides, where did Muhammad sin? Where did David and Solomon sin? Can you give me some quranic proof of them sinning? I would like to see it.

What truth and honesty do you want from me? I am not lying here.

I never said God produces more females in the "believer" category. What I said is that a man could only marry a believer, so using the world numbers of females outnumbering males in the world is no use if you want to go by Islamic rules, because not everybody is a Muslim. And if you are not going by Islamic rules, then marriage is ok for anyone no matter the number of spouses. So I'm assuming you are going by Islamic rules.

Would I take on a 65 year old widow who has lost her husband? Well it depends how much money I have, where I live, and how old I am, what she can do for me, how strong is her love for Allah, and stuff like that.

There are plenty of factors that you are not even considering. Like is every man capable of handling 4 wives financially? Can every single man treat each of his wives equally? What age are we talking about marriage? It seem like you are leaving out the 65 and older category, and a typical girl is eligible for marriage at about 10 and a boy at about 14. How many people are gay in this world? How many believers are male to female in Islamic marriage law? You certainly can't just take more females then males and say Allah is wrong. NO WAY, there are factors and you simply ignore them. I have never ever heard of a woman unable to find a husband, You are also assuming every person is single and every person in the world at the same time is looking to be married and all are believers. You aren't taking a lot of things in factor such as health issues, are some people even able to be married such as jail inmates cannot be married who are in jail for life. If you don't take these factors into consideration this is not really debatable.

Now you are saying that a male dominated Muslim nation is falling apart. Is it because its a man's fault, or because they are not following Islam properly to make it work? Also, is it only Islamic leaders that are falling apart? President Bush aint the greatest you know. WHOA! IN WHAT DOES ALLAH MAKE A MALE TWICE A FEMALE??? IN WITNESSES!!! Why? Becuase women cave in easier then men, they are emotionally weaker and more easily convinced. That's why a muslim woman can only marry a muslim man, because if she married a christian or a Jewish man, she is convinced more easily to change religions. You might disagree based on your experiences or where you live, but this is the reason why.