Norm's Honest Questions About Screwballs

[DawnBat]

Something I've noticed here regarding the honor/shame aspect of challenge/riposte.

Some people seem to be assuming that the main purpose is to make the person who is being attacked feel bad. But honor/shame is a collectivistic system, not an individualistic one.

The point is to make the people who are silly look silly.

So, if JPH is using the challenge/riposte, converting someone, or else driving them away, or else making them unhappy, these are not the standards of success. He succeeds if those he is debating are publicly humiliated whether they recognize their shame or not.

Whether they deserve that shame is another matter, so don't blast me for taking JPH's side just yet. Wait 'till I actually read the debates, and let me decide. I just wanted to point out that the success or failure of challenge/riposte is based in public perception, not in personal feelings.

Which means two things:

A. I think it is quite appropriate for public exchanges for those with a clear anti-Christian agenda. If they are trying to attack with no real honest questions, then they will succeed as long as they are taken "seriously" and shown "respect". If everyone is willing to treat them like minor deities in order to avoid sounding intolerant, then most people will assume they have some sort of point or validity. If they have a real point, then someone who is honest and respectful will bring it up eventually.

B. It may be counter-productive in today's squid-culture because the intolerance police will shift the shame onto the attacker, as people are constantly trying to do with JP.

Still, those who are ridiculous deserve to have their bubbles burst, on both sides of the fence. And if JP is willing to get discredited and reviled like this in order to give a few people an accurate view of things, more power to him. I certainly don't have the guts.

[Soundsurfr]

Something I've noticed here regarding the honor/shame aspect of challenge/riposte.

Some people seem to be assuming that the main purpose is to make the person who is being attacked feel bad. But honor/shame is a collectivistic system, not an individualistic one.

Which probably works a lot better within the framework of a collectivistic society. Do you see one around here?

The point is to make the people who are silly look silly.

On that point, he is succeeding beautifully, as he is looking REALLY silly.

So, if JPH is using the challenge/riposte, converting someone, or else driving them away, or else making them unhappy, these are not the standards of success. He succeeds if those he is debating are publicly humiliated whether they recognize their shame or not.

Well I guess then I'm no judge of how well he's doing in his crusade to publicly shame me. You'll have to help me out with that. Factor into your assessment the fact that I just received some pearls and notes of encouragement from other Christians in this forum for my comments in this thread, and let me know how well he's doing.

You see, I think there is the obvious small group of defenders here who are on JPH's side, and then there is the rest of the TWEB community. The lines are not drawn along Christian/atheist boundaries. JPH's daily attempts to "publicly humiliate opponents" will be always be met with enthusiasm from his 11 or so ardent supporters, and the rest of us will just shake our heads in amusement and be sort of embarassed for all of them.

[familyof6]

You see, I think there is the obvious small group of defenders here who are on JPH's side, and then there is the rest of the TWEB community. The lines are not drawn along Christian/atheist boundaries. JPH's daily attempts to "publicly humiliate opponents" will be always be met with enthusiasm from his 11 or so ardent supporters, and the rest of us will just shake our heads in amusement and be sort of embarassed for all of them.

I concur.

[OldManZangetsu]

You see, I think there is the obvious small group of defenders here who are on JPH's side, and then there is the rest of the TWEB community. The lines are not drawn along Christian/atheist boundaries. JPH's daily attempts to "publicly humiliate opponents" will be always be met with enthusiasm from his 11 or so ardent supporters, and the rest of us will just shake our heads in amusement and be sort of embarassed for all of them.

Can you give us an idea of what this ratio looks like?

[jpholding]

Which probably works a lot better within the framework of a collectivistic society.

Works fine here too. I mean, just LOOK at you after that Supersonic Bears(TM) travesty.

JPH's daily attempts to "publicly humiliate opponents" will be always be met with enthusiasm from his 11 or so ardent supporters, and the rest of us will just shake our heads in amusement and be sort of embarassed for all of them.

Have to assume this is only because you ran out of fingers to count on.

[Sparko]

what is this "supersonic bears" thing you keep referring to?

[Frogwarrior]

Check this thread. Eventually soundsurfr starts dancing the rumba while trying to figure out some way, any way at all, in which JP's interpretation of the biblical text concerned could possibly be false, and coming up with some... ridiculous conclusions.

[Soundsurfr]

Check this thread. Eventually soundsurfr starts dancing the rumba while trying to figure out some way, any way at all, in which JP's interpretation of the biblical text concerned could possibly be false, and coming up with some... ridiculous conclusions.

JP's interpretation is ludicrous. I came up with no conclusions except that JP likes to inform others the bible does not mean what it says. It means what HE says.

[jpholding]

JP's interpretation is ludicrous. I came up with no conclusions except that JP likes to inform others the bible does not mean what it says. It means what HE says.

The above is a good summation of what happened, inasmuch as SoundlyBeaten couldn't answer specifics except by theorizing things like Supersonic Bears (TM).

[Frogwarrior]

JP's conclusion is based on actually knowing what is going on, unlike your epistemological disasters.

The SuperSonic Bears was Soundsurfr saying that even if a large number of youths ran away from two bears, the bears maybe, just maybe, could run fast enough to hurt 42 of them. Which would require the bears to run at ridiculous speeds.

Or maybe the youths ran into a cul-de-sac... multiple times, perhaps?

[Mountain Man]

JP's interpretation is ludicrous. I came up with no conclusions except that JP likes to inform others the bible does not mean what it says. It means what HE says.

As DawnBat said, some people don't realize just how silly JP has made them look.

[Mountain Man]

Check this thread. Eventually soundsurfr starts dancing the rumba while trying to figure out some way, any way at all, in which JP's interpretation of the biblical text concerned could possibly be false, and coming up with some... ridiculous conclusions.

You can also find more of his frantic two-steppin' in this thread (things don't really get rolling until around page 3 or 4).

[ApologiaPhoenix]

I'm curious why someone like soundsurfr would find that passage so laughable.

[Soundsurfr]

You can also find more of his frantic two-steppin' in this thread (things don't really get rolling until around page 3 or 4).

Right! That was the thread where Theonomy was two-steppin' with me -

But jpholding hasn't provided evidence for his claims about baqa'. In fact, just do a search of the Old Testament for every time it appears, and you'll see that in fact it means tear/rip/break up/break open. It just does. Look it up. After you get back to us and tell us that you've looked it up for yourself (since I despise laziness, whether on the part of skeptics OR Christians), you can either tell us that you now see this, or you can say that it tends to mean something else. If you say the latter, then you can provide examples, and I'll respond to them. But the exegetical evidence is clear cut in a way that it rarely is in most cases: It means the bears tore into these guys.

And he puts you away pretty neatly right here, too, MM. Guess you forgot.

Time to start shamin' Theonomy, friends. I'll watch.

[jpholding]

Right! That was the thread where Theonomy was two-steppin' with me -

Not for long. You ended up walking down that beach alone when all was said and done.