Norm's Honest Questions About Screwballs

[Darth Executor]

Says the boy with Hitler as his pet.

First of all, I'm not a "boy". But it's nice to see that you are now a hypocrite. Congratulations.

[SpinyNorman]

What angry words?

Likewise.

[SpinyNorman]

First of all, I'm not a "boy". But it's nice to see that you are now a hypocrite. Congratulations.

How am I a hypocrite?

[Dee Dee Warren]

but Nick, the way some people post around here it is not so simple as making a bad argument look bad. They get down right angry and vicious, and I am sorry, but that benefits no one.

Spiny I am sure that happens. I am sure I have done it myself. But that does not mean that the opposite extreme at all times is the answer.

Is JP always right? No. Do I think sometimes he goes too far? Yes of course, the day I think JP is perfect is the day that Jesus is no longer the sole measure of perfection but other human beings. I think the same of myself.

On the other hand, do I think others do damage to the sheep by going too far the other direction? Absolutely. Again, I have no idea where I would be today if it wasn't for JP. He personally took a lot of time not just by email but also personally to minister to me. JP will not tout his own praises, but I know him personally, and I know some of the very kind-hearted and generous things he does for people, and especially people who are handicapped in their sight, such as blind or near-blind. He would never brag about that, so I will brag about that for him. Out of all the people I know, JP is one person that I can truly say doesn't judge a person on outward appearances but on the content of their arguments and their character. Does he get it wrong sometimes? Sure. But he is one of the least prejudiced people I know on thngs the rest of us, to our shame, judge people on.

[Darth Executor]

How am I a hypocrite?

Calling me boy is an insult and you know it. Implying I like Hitler is another. Don't play stupid with me.

[SpinyNorman]

Spiny I am sure that happens. I am sure I have done it myself. But that does not mean that the opposite extreme at all times is the answer.

Is JP always right? No. Do I think sometimes he goes too far? Yes of course, the day I think JP is perfect is the day that Jesus is no longer the sole measure of perfection but other human beings. I think the same of myself.

On the other hand, do I think others do damage to the sheep by going too far the other direction? Absolutely. Again, I have no idea where I would be today if it wasn't for JP. He personally took a lot of time not just by email but also personally to minister to me. JP will not tout his own praises, but I know him personally, and I know some of the very kind-hearted and generous things he does for people, and especially people who are handicapped in their sight, such as blind or near-blind. He would never brag about that, so I will brag about that for him. Out of all the people I know, JP is one person that I can truly say doesn't judge a person on outward appearances but on the content of their arguments and their character. Does he get it wrong sometimes? Sure. But he is one of the least prejudiced people I know on thngs the rest of us, to our shame, judge people on.

Then DD we have no disagreement.

As I said earlier, I believe there is a time and place for it. My concern is for people who do it all the time.

I do not know JP. Have not really interacted with him until today, so my statement yesterday that I refuse to read any of his posts was ignorant and uninformed. I can admit when I am wrong.

But I still believe we need to be careful, that's all. I have never advocated a "love everyone and let them do whatever" approach.

But I sometimes wonder if all the poison that some of our trollish members spit would be reduced somewhat by some attempts to be civil, even when they are not.

[Gideon Brown]

and there are people seeking to destroy the faith held by Christians. The second group deserves our scorn, they are enemies of the cross and their arguments should be answered as such.

Right, - that's it (and, what Darth says later, though I wrote this before he posted).

The thing to remember is that the people being shamed are not innocent. They're certainly not 'seekers', but more than that, they're not even 'honest skeptics'. They are hard-hearted haters of God and they are guilty of the terrible crime of convincing others to abandon faith. That's a terrible, awful crime, and it needs to be stopped. We're not playing a game, where afterwards everyone gets to be friends again - people's souls are being destroyed.

When jph, or anyone else, uses strong language to shame someone, they're not doing it just for the sake of being mean, and they're not doing because they have some 'personality flaw'. They're doing it very intentionally to stop the person from destroying any more souls.

Can we say 'well, yeah, sure, I know that guy was dragging others down into the pit, but... that wasn't an excuse to be rude to him!'? Would we be so kind to a murderer or rapist, whose crimes - in the eyes of God, not society - are arguably lesser than the crime of dragging someone to hell (I see Dee Dee has mentioned that in the OT, encouraging apostasy was a capital offense)? Would we say, 'gee, I'd like it if that guy'd stop raping people, but I'm not going to be rude to him in order to get him to stop!'?

To me, saying that we should 'go easy' on people bent on destroying other people has a parallel to Christians who've bought the idea that faith should have no place in politics - in both cases, it's a failure to understand the full implication of what it means that God is the ruler of the world. If God is truly the ruler of the world, it means we don't 'play nice' with people who actively hate and work against Him.

I think when I was a very new Christian, I would've been turned off by this sort of thing, too. But then, when I was a new-but-not-brand-new Christian, before I knew enough to think things through for myself, I was helped by it - seeing stupid arguments get put in their place really helped me to see that Christianity does, frankly, have the best case.

I think if a person who is genuinely seeking God is driven away by this approach, they'll find what they need in someone else, and if they don't, it might be because they're seeking a Christianity that conforms to their expectations of what 'should' be - and the fact that God doesnt conform to our expectations or desires is something every new Christian has to learn sooner or later. Aslan's not a tame lion, after all.

And you know what? After writing all that, and reading it over again, and thinking it through... I still don't like rudeness or insults. I'd love everyone to love everyone. I'd even like to argue that we should always be nice. But if I force myself to think harder about it, I realize that we just can't let people who hate God tear other people down. So I dunno.

[Darth Executor]

Likewise.

Allow me to elaborate:

It is you who have the ignorant reading. Not I.

"I know you are but what am I?"

This is the sign of somebody who was insulted but couldn't come up with a real reply so he just says "No I'm not, you are."

One almost has to wonder why you have so much pent up anger.

This statement is absolutely bizarre when my post included a wink to let you know I was joking. You are likely projecting your own anger on me.
Can you answer my question now?

[SpinyNorman]

Calling me boy is an insult and you know it. Implying I like Hitler is another. Don't play stupid with me.

Seriously dude, the arrogance that drips from your posts is scary.

NO..boy was NOT intended as an insult. Don't presume that you, sitting on your end of the internet connection, can tell me what I meant. If I ever wanted to hurl insults, I would have done so long ago. If you took that as an insult I apologize. My brother and I call each other boy all the time.

Second, I amnot implying anything. I simply find it interesting why a person who has Hilter as a pet gets on Chamberlin.

If you need clarification, just ask. Don't assume.

[SpinyNorman]

Allow me to elaborate:

It is you who have the ignorant reading. Not I.

"I know you are but what am I?"

This is the sign of somebody who was insulted but couldn't come up with a real reply so he just says "No I'm not, you are."

No actually, that is a simple reply to your statement that I had the ignorant interpretation. I wish I could make you see that total lack of anger on my part. Not even a smidge.

One almost has to wonder why you have so much pent up anger.

This statement is absolutely bizarre when my post included a wink to let you know I was joking. You are likely projecting your own anger on me.
Can you answer my question now?

The wink seemed to me to be made in a sarcastic way. If that was not your intent, I apologize for my misunderstanding.

See, anything can be worked out by simply talking it out.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

Norm. I'd say this. I'm really pleased you're talking with JPH now. I've been in emails with him even before theologyweb and I've found him every time to be kind and generous.

I'd say get used to talking to him some though. You do have to spend eternity with him after all.

[Sparko]

But I sometimes wonder if all the poison that some of our trollish members spit would be reduced somewhat by some attempts to be civil, even when they are not.

Yup sometimes it can. Luv1Another proved that to us recently with one member who came in here all hot and determined to cause trouble. We were ready to respond in kind and she stopped us and befriended him. He turned right around and became friendly. He was just being defensive and expected to be slapped down so he wanted to get in the first blow, I guess.

So yeah sometimes nice works.

but other times we have people that will take "nice" as an sign of weakness and be all the more aggressive. I think Trout and Dee Dee are right that sometimes those people need a slap down to make them realize that Christians are not pushovers.

But you are right in that sometimes people go too far. Being stern is ok but being deliberatly insulting and berating is not. And getting personal with insults is never cool.

That's what I have gotten from reading this thread. The discussion has helped clear up some of my worries and questions. I have learned from everyone.

[Xmansmommy]

Then you disagree with my assessment that you believe you have to be nice to somebody to love them? Because that's what the debate is about. If you don't believe this, then why are you here arguing that we shouldn't insult people?

DE, did you read the passages I suggested? I'm curious where insulting was listed? Kindness was however. Can we be kind at the same time we're hurling insults? I don't believe so. But I do believe we can tell someone the truth, be firm, even harsh while still being kind.

Of those attributes of love listed, I am curious which of them give approval to insulting, name calling, personally attacking behavior? How many who engage in such behaviors honestly seek to apply the principles of love to their dialogue? One of the problems I have with how people go about doing it is that they say, "well he started it" or "he deserved it". Comments such as these reveal a great deal about which of the attributes of love they are going against. Again, love, never fails.

[SpinyNorman]

Norm. I'd say this. I'm really pleased you're talking with JPH now. I've been in emails with him even before theologyweb and I've found him every time to be kind and generous.

I'd say get used to talking to him some though. You do have to spend eternity with him after all.

I have no hatred for anyone Nick.

I used to live my life as a very hate filled, angry person. I realized one day that not only was not the way God wanted me to live, it was also killing me inside.

It took a brave and treasured friend to confront me about it. When I realized she was right I resolved to make some changes.

Maybe that is why I just can't let this go. I am not talking here about JP specifically....haven't really all day, except when addressing him directly. I think there quite a few here that go overboard sometimes, yours truly included.

[Trout]

Right, - that's it (and, what Darth says later, though I wrote this before he posted).

The thing to remember is that the people being shamed are not innocent. They're certainly not 'seekers', but more than that, they're not even 'honest skeptics'. They are hard-hearted haters of God and they are guilty of the terrible crime of convincing others to abandon faith. That's a terrible, awful crime, and it needs to be stopped. We're not playing a game, where afterwards everyone gets to be friends again - people's souls are being destroyed.

When jph, or anyone else, uses strong language to shame someone, they're not doing it just for the sake of being mean, and they're not doing because they have some 'personality flaw'. They're doing it very intentionally to stop the person from destroying any more souls.

Can we say 'well, yeah, sure, I know that guy was dragging others down into the pit, but... that wasn't an excuse to be rude to him!'? Would we be so kind to a murderer or rapist, whose crimes - in the eyes of God, not society - are arguably lesser than the crime of dragging someone to hell (I see Dee Dee has mentioned that in the OT, encouraging apostasy was a capital offense)? Would we say, 'gee, I'd like it if that guy'd stop raping people, but I'm not going to be rude to him in order to get him to stop!'?

To me, saying that we should 'go easy' on people bent on destroying other people has a parallel to Christians who've bought the idea that faith should have no place in politics - in both cases, it's a failure to understand the full implication of what it means that God is the ruler of the world. If God is truly the ruler of the world, it means we don't 'play nice' with people who actively hate and work against Him.

I think when I was a very new Christian, I would've been turned off by this sort of thing, too. But then, when I was a new-but-not-brand-new Christian, before I knew enough to think things through for myself, I was helped by it - seeing stupid arguments get put in their place really helped me to see that Christianity does, frankly, have the best case.

I think if a person who is genuinely seeking God is driven away by this approach, they'll find what they need in someone else, and if they don't, it might be because they're seeking a Christianity that conforms to their expectations of what 'should' be - and the fact that God doesnt conform to our expectations or desires is something every new Christian has to learn sooner or later. Aslan's not a tame lion, after all.

And you know what? After writing all that, and reading it over again, and thinking it through... I still don't like rudeness or insults. I'd love everyone to love everyone. I'd even like to argue that we should always be nice. But if I force myself to think harder about it, I realize that we just can't let people who hate God tear other people down. So I dunno.

An EXCELLENT post, brother. Well thought out and well spoken. Thanks for sharing!