Originally posted by robrecht
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Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostOf course. Why do you think that has any relevance to what I said? Perhaps you are imagining I said something that I did not say. I did not say that it follows that God is always and eternally existing infinitely and always and eternally creating an infinite existence. I merely implied that it was not impossible given JimL's view.
Also note Jim's response.Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-15-2015, 09:00 PM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostBecause you can't eternally create that which already exists eternally.
Originally posted by JimL View PostTo create something, that something can not already exist prior to its being created.
Originally posted by JimL View PostAnd 2) if god is only a part of eternal existence, then existence itself would be greater than god.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post. . . because you referred to an 'eternally creating an infinite existence.' Creating logically refers to the action of an outside 'Source.'
Also note Jim's response.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostI think this follows if you are speaking of creation in time. Eternal creation would be rather different.
Yes, you are speaking of creation in time, but eternal creation would not admit of prior and subsequent.
God would not be everything that exists, that I grant you.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostBut I didn't say anything about time. ...
Originally posted by JimL View PostIf there is no such thing as nothingness, which is the main topic of this thread, then it makes no sense to say that existence came to be with time. If there is no such thing as nothingness, and if, due to that fact, the something which does exist is therefore infinite, then that infinite existence can not be said to have never existed, else prior to its existing, there would have been "nothingness".
Originally posted by JimL View PostNo, I'm not, i'm speaking of the incomprehensible notion of nothingness and the resulting conclusion being that of an uncreated eternal and infinite existence. To disagree, would be to assume nothingness to be a legitimate idea. I don't think it is.
Originally posted by JimL View PostIf god is part of the whole of infinite existence, then in what sense is he god, and in what sense is he the creator of that which he is only a part?βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostJim was seemingly speaking of creation in time, with temporal limitations, ie, with a before and after, but I was speaking of eternal creation. You seem to be imagining creation within spatial limitations, ie, a creator outside of a bounded space, but we are speaking of creation of an infinite existence, not a finite bounded space that has an 'outside'.
JimL and I had a long frustrating sort of dialogue over this issue of whether an eternal Creation is possible here: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...-and-Cosmogony.
The Baha'i belief is that Creation is co-eternal with God. As long as God has existed Creation has existed.Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-15-2015, 10:45 PM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostNo, I do not imagine Creation in spatial limitations, but JimL proposes that is the only way a God is possible, and yet believes that no form of God or god(s) is possible. I do not specifically define God as being inside nor outside anything. I do believe that God is distinct from God's Creation.
JimL and I had a long frustrating sort of dialogue over this issue of whether an eternal Creation is possible here: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...-and-Cosmogony.
The Baha'i belief is that Creation is co-eternal with God. As long as God has existed Creation has existed.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostNo, I do not imagine Creation in spatial limitations ...
... because you referred to an 'eternally creating an infinite existence.' Creating logically refers to the action of an outside 'Source.'
Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post... but JimL proposes that is the only way a God is possible, and yet believes that no form of God or god(s) is possible. I do not specifically define God as being inside nor outside anything. I do believe that God is distinct from God's Creation.
JimL and I had a long frustrating sort of dialogue over this issue of whether an eternal Creation is possible here: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...-and-Cosmogony.
The Baha'i belief is that Creation is co-eternal with God. As long as God has existed Creation has existed.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostI took it as implied by your use of 'already existing prior to its being created'. Prior to and subsequent to a point in time are temporal concepts.
But if you want to talk about the possibility of 'eternal creation' you cannot refute it by bringing up anything (or nothing) that may or may not have occurred prior to 'eternal creation'.
I am not disputing the idea that nothingness is incomprehensible.
He would not be a creator of himself. I think people who speak of 'eternal creation' have in mind the idea of God sustaining all existence which depends eternally on his eternal act of creation.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostHow would you define a thing that is neither inside nor outside of existence?
I would not narrowly define it as being in or out of any one place. I believe that God is distinct from the universe. This separates my Theist belief form Pantheistic beliefs where God or no God is part of or is the universe.Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-16-2015, 06:09 AM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by JimL View PostIts the only logical way to explain it. If there is no such thing as nothingness, and something has always existed, then obviously the something that has always existed would be infinite, and no other thing could have existed prior to it, for the very reason that there is no such thing as prior to it.
The point is that there is no such thing as eternal creation, if that which you refer to as created has always existed.
Okay. Then you must admit as well that creation is incomprehensible.
I think it silly to think of an uncreated and eternal existence to be in need of a personal god to sustain its existence.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by JimL View PostIts the only logical way to explain it. If there is no such thing as nothingness, and something has always existed, then obviously the something that has always existed would be infinite, and no other thing could have existed prior to it, for the very reason that there is no such thing as prior to it.
Originally posted by JimL View PostThe point is that there is no such thing as eternal creation, if that which you refer to as created has always existed.
Originally posted by JimL View PostOkay. Then you must admit as well that creation is incomprehensible.
Originally posted by JimL View PostI think it silly to think of an uncreated and eternal existence to be in need of a personal god to sustain its existence.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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The point that there was never nothingness is that there was always existence. Uncaused existence.
To make the assertion that universe is that uncaused existence introduces caused things as uncaused which is false. Uncaused existence has no cause and needs no God. That the uncaused existence is the uncaused part of the universe, universe being defined as all that exists. The universe as a whole is not that uncaused existence.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostThe point that there was never nothingness is that there was always existence. Uncaused existence.
To make the assertion that universe is that uncaused existence introduces caused things as uncaused which is false.
Uncaused existence has no cause and needs no God. That the uncaused existence is the uncaused part of the universe, universe being defined as all that exists. The universe as a whole is not that uncaused existence.
This reminds of old cosmological arguments that our universe must have a beginning, therefore our physical existence must have a source outside our physical existence. Classic 'Begging the Question' grounded in an agenda assuming God exists a priori.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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