Originally posted by 37818
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Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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The self-existent existence.
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The self-existent existence.
. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJVTags: None
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostUncaused existence is self-existent.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostTrue. The physical universe may be the self-existent uncaused existence.
So your argument is not valid, even if uncause existence as key part of the universe even with the universe being deemed uncaused in it origin, that is, having no origin being uncaused.
The uncaused existence is one thing. The uncaused universe being more than the uncaused existence is a second thing.Last edited by 37818; 11-15-2015, 05:13 PM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostThe physical universe may include the uncaused existence. But it would also be more than that. Since the things in existence are not the existence proper.
So your argument is not valid, even if uncause existence is key part of the universe even with the universe being deemed uncaused in it origin.
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostThe physical universe may include the uncaused existence. But it would also be more than that. Since the things in existence are not the uncaused existence proper. The universe including caused things which are not uncaused.
So your argument is not valid, even if uncause existence as key part of the universe even with the universe being deemed uncaused in it origin, that is, having no origin being uncaused.
The uncaused existence is one thing. The uncaused universe being more than the uncaused existence is a second thing.
Other than that the above is an assertion of theistic belief in a theistic cosmogony. An assertion of belief is not a sufficient argument for the existence of God as the uncaused existence nor the uncaused cause.
I am not presenting an argument either way. I am just presenting the limits of making such an argument for the existence of, nor the non-existence of a Source some call God(s) beyond our physical universe.Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-15-2015, 05:25 PM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe uncaused universe could possibly be have no origin and be 'all there is,' the uncaused existence. What evidence can you present that there is anything more than the physical universe.
Other than that the above is an assertion of theistic belief in a theistic cosmogony. An assertion of belief is not a sufficient argument for the existence of God as the uncaused existence nor the uncaused cause.
I am not presenting an argument either way. I am just presenting the limits of making such an argument for the existence of, nor the non-existence of a Source some call God(s) beyond our physical universe.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
Comment
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostTo make the assertion that universe is that uncaused existence introduces caused things as uncaused which is false. Uncaused existence has no cause and needs no God. That the uncaused existence is the uncaused part of the universe, universe being defined as all that exists. The universe as a whole is not that uncaused existence.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThis, again, is a theological assumption on your part and is apparently a premise in your argument for the existence of God. This premise is not accepted.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
Comment
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostFirst off the uncaused existence needs no God. Second, what is my argument that would identify the uncaused existence to be God? Atheist can argue that since the unaused existence needs no God there need not be a God nor any need to identify the uncaused existence as God. All the classical theistic arguements argue for an existence for God, do they not?
To make the assertion that universe is that uncaused existence introduces caused things as uncaused which is false. Uncaused existence has no cause and needs no God. That the uncaused existence is the uncaused part of the universe, universe being defined as all that exists. The universe as a whole is not that uncaused existence.Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-16-2015, 11:08 AM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostYes they do, but they fail, because the necessary premises for the arguments make them circular.
This statement argues for an uncaused existence other than the physical existence. Therefore, argues as a premise for the existence of God.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
Comment
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostNone of the classical arguments for the existence of God are circular. They do argue for God's existence. They do presume existence.
A physical existence requires matter. All physical matter as we know it is caused. There still has to be an uncaused existence. And what is the argument for the uncaused existence to be God? Which you have not presented or refuted. Denied yes.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostMatter and energy are two sides of the same substance, the one converts into the other under certain natural conditions, and so there is no reason to assume that substance to have been created or caused.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
Comment
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostNone of the classical arguments for the existence of God are circular. They do argue for God's existence. They do presume existence.
A physical existence requires matter. All physical matter as we know it is caused. There still has to be an uncaused existence.
False, the Quantum world has no known cause.
And what is the argument for the uncaused existence to be God? Which you have not presented or refuted. Denied yes.
The existence of God cannot be proved nor disproved.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostThere can be an infinite sequence of matter to energy, energy to matter, with no first event. But that interaction is a cause and effect with no first cause. But they are all caused. Not uncaused. mc2 > E and E > mc2 for that conversion there would be some type of cause.
Yes, the cause would simply be Natural Law. There is no known possible cause for Natural Law.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostInfinite sequences occur with in a time frame and cannot define a greater infinite time frame, which in and of itself is not composed of infinite sequences.
Yes, the cause would simply be Natural Law. There is no known possible cause for Natural Law.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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