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Derail from "Slaughter in Paris."

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  • Derail from "Slaughter in Paris."

    Originally posted by seer View Post
    And so it goes on. "The whole history of the last thousands of years has been a history of religious persecutions and wars, pogroms, jihads, crusades. I find it all very regrettable, to say the least." - Steven Weinberg.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Tassman View Post
    And so it goes on. "The whole history of the last thousands of years has been a history of religious persecutions and wars, pogroms, jihads, crusades. I find it all very regrettable, to say the least." - Steven Weinberg.
    Yes, but don't forget about the millions and millions killed by atheistic regimes. But hey Tass, we are just doing what we were determined to do by the forces of nature - right?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #3
      Tassman, seer, you're derailing the thread. This is not a discussion about the foundations of morality, we all agree that these acts of terrorism are terrible. Please take it to the philosophy subforum.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        In Christianity you have to go directly against what you're expressly told to forcibly convert someone whereas in Islam you have to go directly against what you're expressly told not to forcibly convert someone. You can criticize Christians for some time losing sight of that but you cannot criticize Christianity for it. The same can not be said for Islam. That is not a subtle or insignificant difference.
        I'm calling this out as "Lying for Jesus." I don't much care for Islam, but any claim that this ayah isn't central to every muslim's faith can only be attributed to malice.

        Surah Al-Baqarah, Ayah 256
        There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

        And worse. Dragging the bodies of the dead of Benghazi around to score points for your ideology was beyond contemptible, but this, scoring points on these bodies, before they're even cold, for your religion ... there are no words.

        I'm done here.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
          I'm calling this out as "Lying for Jesus." I don't much care for Islam, but any claim that this ayah isn't central to every muslim's faith can only be attributed to malice.

          Surah Al-Baqarah, Ayah 256
          There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.
          Abrogation for this verse is very popular, although you can find a few scholars who say otherwise.

          Source: Ansering Islam

          Scholars disagree and hold various positions regarding the legal status and meaning of this ayat.

          · It is said that it is ABROGATED because the Prophet FORCED the Arabs to adopt the din of Islam and fought them and was only pleased with Islam for them. Sulayman ibn Musa took the view, saying, "It is abrogated by ‘O Prophet! Do jihad against the unbelievers and the hypocrites.’ (9:73)" That is related from Ibn Mas‘ud and many commentators.

          · It is not abrogated and was sent down about the people of the Book in particular and means that they are not forced to adopt Islam when they pay jizya. THOSE WHO ARE FORCED ARE THE IDOLATERS. Only Islam is accepted from them, and they are the ones about whom ‘O Prophet! Do Jihad against the unbelievers and the hypocrites.’ (9:73) was revealed. This is the position of ash-Sha‘bi, Qatada, al-Hasan and ad-Dahhak. The evidence for this position is related by Zayd ibn Aslam from his father, "I heard ‘Umar in al-Khattab say to an old Christian woman, ‘Become Muslim, old woman, become Muslim. Allah sent Muhammad with the Truth.’ She replied, ‘I am an old woman and close to death.’ ‘Umar said, ‘O Allah, witness!’ and he recited, ‘There is no compulsion where the din is concerned.’"

          · Abu Dawud reported from Ibn ‘Abbas that this was revealed about the Ansar. There was a woman, all of whose children had died. She made a vow that if she had a child who lived she would become a Jew. When the Banu’n-Nadir were exiled, among them were many of the children of the Ansar. They said, "We will not leave our sons!" Then Allah revealed this. One variant has, "We did what we did and we think that their din is better than what we have." When Allah brought Islam, they denied it and this was revealed. Whoever wished remained with them and whoever wished, entered Islam. This is the position of Sa‘id ibn Jubayr, ash-Sha‘bi and Mujahid, but he added that the reason that they were with the Banu’n-Nadir was through suckling. An-Nahhas said, "The position of Ibn ‘Abbas regarding this ayat is the best position since its isnad is sound."

          · As-Suddi said that the ayat was revealed about a man of the Ansar called Abu Husayn who had two sons. Some merchants came from Syria to Madina with oil and when they wanted to leave, his sons went to them. They invited the two sons to become Christians and they did so and went back with them to Syria. Their father went to the Messenger of Allah to complain about this and asked the Messenger of Allah to send someone to bring them back. Then, "There is no compulsion where the din is concerned" was revealed. He had not been commanded to fight the People of the Book. He said, "Allah has put them far. They are the first to disbelieve." Abu’l-Husayn felt annoyed that the Prophet did not send someone after them. Then Allah revealed, "No, by your Lord, they are not believers until they make you their judge in the disputes that break out between them" (4:65). Then "No compulsion" WAS ABROGATED and he was commanded to fight the People of the Book in Surat at-Tawba. The sound view for the reason behind the words, "No, by your Lord, they are not believers …" is the hadith of az-Zubayr with his Christian neighbour about water as will be dealt with in Surat at-Tawba, Allah willing.

          © Copyright Original Source



          Source.

          If you want to accuse someone of lying, it's those who practice Islam and taqqiya/abrogation who you should have your sights on, not rogue06.

          And worse. Dragging the bodies of the dead of Benghazi around to score points for your ideology was beyond contemptible, but this, scoring points on these bodies, before they're even cold, for your religion ... there are no words.

          I'm done here.
          Or, maybe you should do some research before you jump down someone's throat for "lying" when you yourself put in blatant falsehood* in your own post is rather contemptible IMO.

          *The underlined specifically is blatantly false. Abrogation, taqqiya, Quranic verses, Sahih Hadith, and Islamic scholars show it to be false.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
            I'm calling this out as "Lying for Jesus." I don't much care for Islam, but any claim that this ayah isn't central to every muslim's faith can only be attributed to malice.

            Surah Al-Baqarah, Ayah 256
            There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

            And worse. Dragging the bodies of the dead of Benghazi around to score points for your ideology was beyond contemptible, but this, scoring points on these bodies, before they're even cold, for your religion ... there are no words.

            I'm done here.
            Surah 256, like the other passages that called for peace and tolerance, were later abrogated (superseded or repealed) by surah 9:5 (Ayat al-Sayf or the Verse of the Sword).

            The doctrine of abrogation is stated in the Qur'an itself (2:106): "Such of our revelation as we abrogate or cause to be forgotten, we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof." So a later statement that contradicts an earlier one is thought to be better and abrogates the earlier statement[1] -- and nearly all Muslim scholars agree that the Surah Bara'ah (the ninth) was the very last surah in the Qur'an that was revealed (although a few say it was al-Nasr or surah 110) meaning what is contained in it abrogates virtually everything else.

            This practice caused Muhammad's opponents to declare that he was a calumniator and didn't receive inspiration from God because he changed his mind whenever he wished. While Muslims have no problem with this, it is recognized in the Qur'an itself that others do: "And when we put one revelation in place of another revelation – and Allah knows best what he reveals – they say, 'Lo! Thou art but inventing'” (16:101).

            The great Spanish Muslim philosopher Muhyiddin Ibn 'Arabi (1165-1240) proclaimed that surah 9:5 abrogated something like 124 of the more tolerant and peaceful Quranian ayahs.

            The man who is regarded by many as the Muslim world's most respected Qur'an commentator, the revered Muslim expert on tafsir (Quranic exegesis) and faqīh (jurisprudence), Ismail ibn Kathir (c.1300-1373), declared that surah 9:5 "abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolater, every treaty, and every term. ... No idolater had any more treaty or promise of safety since Surah Bara'ah [the ninth] was revealed." He adds that "Allah's pardon for the disbelievers was repealed. Abu Al-`Aliyah, Ar-Rabi` bin Anas, Qatadah and As-Suddi said similarly: "It [the pardon, or forgiveness] was abrogated by the Ayah [verse] of the sword."

            Today, the conservative Muhammad Saalih Al-Munajjid[3], who's fatawas (edicts or rulings) circulate throughout the Islamic world and are taken very seriously, in discussing surah 2:256 ("Let there be no compulsion in religion"), quoted Surahs 8:39, 9:29 along with 9:5 and declared "these and similar verses abrogate those saying there is no compulsion to become Muslim."

            So warfare against non-Muslims until they were converted or utterly oppressed was mandated by Muhammad.

            This is confirmed by what we read in the Hadiths including the ones venerated as being authoritative like the Sahih Muslim and Sahih al-Bukhari:
            Sahih Muslim 1:33: The Messenger of Allah said: "I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay zakat."

            Sahih al-Bukhari 2:24: "Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

            Sahih al-Bukhari 8:387: "Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah.'"

            Sahih al-Bukhari 60:80: "The Verse:--'You (true Muslims) are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind.' means, the best of peoples for the people, as you bring them with chains on their necks till they embrace Islam."

            Aside from the Hadiths, Ibn Ishaq (704-767/8, regarded as the earliest and most thorough of Islam's historians), who wrote the Sīrat Rasūl Allāh ("Life of the Messenger of God") relates that,
            "Then the apostle sent Khalid bin Walid… to the Banu al-Harith and ordered him to invite them to Islam three days before he attacked them. If they accepted then he was to accept it from them, and if they declined he was to fight them. So Khalid set out and came to them, and sent out riders in all directions inviting the people to Islam, saying, “If you accept Islam you will be safe.” So the men accepted Islam as they were invited."

            The text makes clear that the al-Harith[2] were only taught about Islam after their coerced "conversion," demonstrating that it was based on their fear of being slaughtered.

            Further, as Ibn Ishaq relates, when Abu Sufyan ibn Harb (the leader of the chief of the Banu Abd-Shams clan of the Quraish tribe of Mecca) went to seek peace with Muhammad, he was instead told (in Muhammad's presence): "Submit and testify that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammad is the prophet of Allah before you lose your head."

            Likewise, Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari (839–923), the well respected historian and exegete of the Qur'an, best known for his Qur'anic commentary Tafsir al-Tabari and his historical chronicle Tarikh al-Rusul wa al-Muluk ("History of the Prophets and Kings") recounts in volume 9 of his History
            "In this year, in the month of Rabi II (it is said in the month of Rabi’ I or in Jumada I), the Messenger of God sent Khalid ibn al-Walid with an army of four hundred to the Banu al-Harith ibn Ka’b.

            The Messenger of God sent Khalid ibn al-Walid in the month of Rabi II, or Jumada I, in the year 10/631 to the Balharith ibn Ka’b in Najran, and ordered him to invite them to Islam for three days before he fought them. If they should respond to him [with the acceptance of Islam], then he was to accept it from them, and to stay with them and teach them the Book of God, the sunnah of His prophet, and the requirements of Islam (ma’alim al-islam); if they should decline, then he was to fight them.

            Khalid departed and came to them, sending out riders in every direction inviting them to Islam and saying, “O people, accept Islam, and you will be safe.” So they embraced Islam and responded to his call. Khalid stayed with them, teaching them Islam, the Book of God, and the sunnah of His prophet."

            In volume 10 Tabari quotes Al-Hubab ibn al-Mundhir ibn Zayd (an advisor of Muhammad and who participated during in the meeting at saqifah during the Succession to Muhammad), who was supporting one group of Muslims in their quest for leadership after Muhammad's death, as saying:
            "For you are more deserving of this authority than they are, as it was by your swords that those who were not yet converted came to obey this religion."

            Finally, I'll cite Umdat as-Salik wa 'Uddat an-Nasik ("Reliance of the Traveler and Tools of the Worshiper"), one of the most highly respected works on Islamic theology and jurisprudence and based on the teachings of Abu Zakaria Muhiy ad-Din Yahya Ibn Sharaf al-Nawawi (or just Al-Nawawi -- 1233–1277)[4]. It has something to say about jihad and forced conversion that is relevant to this discussion:
            "Jihad means to war against non-Muslims, and is etymologically derived from the word “mujahada”, signifying warfare to establish the religion. And it is the lesser jihad. As for the greater jihad, it is spiritual warfare against the lower self, (nafs), which is why the Prophet said as he was returning from jihad, “We have returned from the lesser jihad to the greater jihad.”

            The scriptural basis for jihad, prior to scholarly consensus is such Koranic verses as:

            1) Fighting is prescribed for you [2:216]

            2) Slay them wherever you find them [4:89]

            3) Fight the idolaters utterly [9:36]

            and such Hadiths as the one related by Bukhari and Muslim that the Prophet said:
            “I have been commanded to fight people until they testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and perform the prayer, and pay zakat. If they say it, they have saved their blood and possessions from me, except for the rights of Islam over them. And their final reckoning is with Allah.”

            And the hadith reported by Muslim,
            “To go forth in the morning or evening to fight in the path of Allah is better than the whole world and everything in it.”"


















            1. AFAICT, without exception, all Islamic religious scholars state that abrogation not only included the abolishing, dropping or replacing of a verse by another (often contradictory) verse, but it also includes abolishing a provision of a verse without eliminating its wording or text from the Qur'an. So the verses that were later repealed and replaced remain in the Qur'an but are no longer in effect

            2. Actually the Ghassanids with Al-Harith ibn Jabalah being their king.

            3. Popularly known for his attacks on Mickey Mouse, calling women who drive prostitutes and blaming the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake and tsunami on immorality.

            4. He is still so widely esteemed and revered that Jabhat al-Nusra (a.k.a. al-Qaeda in Syria) demolished his tomb earlier this year because they viewed it as sacrilegious.
            Last edited by rogue06; 11-15-2015, 11:56 AM.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              Yes, but don't forget about the millions and millions killed by atheistic regimes. But hey Tass, we are just doing what we were determined to do by the forces of nature - right?
              Actually, as usual this is very misleading. In Europe Christians enthusiastically did the dirty work of the pogroms, religious and ethnic cleansing regardless of who the despotic rulers believed.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                Actually, as usual this is very misleading. In Europe Christians enthusiastically did the dirty work of the pogroms, religious and ethnic cleansing regardless of who the despotic rulers believed.
                I think you misunderstood; seer was referring to atheistic regimes, eg, Stalin in the Soviet Union, and not denying Christian violence against Jews in Europe.
                βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                  I think you misunderstood; seer was referring to atheistic regimes, eg, Stalin in the Soviet Union, and not denying Christian violence against Jews in Europe.
                  I did not misunderstand. The Violence against Jews under Stalin and Hitler were committed enthusiastically regardless of the views of the despotic rulers. This also occurred in Yugoslavia in more recent history except the victims were Muslims. Jews were considered 'Christ killers' and the passion plays in Europe fomented violence against the Jews.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    Actually, as usual this is very misleading. In Europe Christians enthusiastically did the dirty work of the pogroms, religious and ethnic cleansing regardless of who the despotic rulers believed.
                    That is a lie, was speaking of the Stalinists, the Maoists, the followers of Pot Pot, Castro, et al...
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      I did not misunderstand. The Violence against Jews under Stalin and Hitler were committed enthusiastically regardless of the views of the despotic rulers. This also occurred in Yugoslavia in more recent history except the victims were Muslims. Jews were considered 'Christ killers' and the passion plays in Europe fomented violence against the Jews.
                      You lie again Shuny, show me where Christians were doing the dirty work against Jews for Stalin.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        You lie again Shuny, show me where Christians were doing the dirty work against Jews for Stalin.
                        Historical records, these countries were predominately Christian.
                        Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-15-2015, 07:13 PM.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          That is a lie, was speaking of the Stalinists, the Maoists, the followers of Pot Pot, Castro, et al...
                          I am referring to Europe. Germany and Russia are predominately Christian and remain so today.
                          Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-15-2015, 07:13 PM.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            I am referring to Europe. Germany and Russia are predominately Christian and remain so today.
                            This is absolutely and unremittingly false, and you know it.
                            My Amazon Author page: https://www.amazon.com/-/e/B0719RS8BK

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Rational Gaze View Post
                              This is absolutely and unremittingly false, and you know it.
                              Not false at all pogroms ethnic and religious cleansing and persecution of Jews by Christians were common throughout the whole history of Europe since Rome regardless of who the ruling despot was, king emperor or dictator. In recent history it was Muslims in Yugoslavia.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment

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