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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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  • #16
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Historical records, these countries were predominately Christian.
    China was predominately Christian, Cambodia? Cuba and the Soviet Union were purging the churches. You are such a liar Shuny. There is no evidence that Christians took a large role in any of this.

    http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/archives/anti.html


    The Soviet Union was the first state to have as an ideological objective the elimination of religion. Toward that end, the Communist regime confiscated church property, ridiculed religion, harassed believers, and propagated atheism in the schools. Actions toward particular religions, however, were determined by State interests, and most organized religions were never outlawed.

    The main target of the anti-religious campaign in the 1920s and 1930s was the Russian Orthodox Church, which had the largest number of faithful. Nearly all of its clergy, and many of its believers, were shot or sent to labor camps. Theological schools were closed, and church publications were prohibited. By 1939 only about 500 of over 50,000 churches remained open.

    After Nazi Germany's attack on the Soviet Union in 1941, Joseph Stalin revived the Russian Orthodox Church to intensify patriotic support for the war effort. By 1957 about 22,000 Russian Orthodox churches had become active. But in 1959 Nikita Khrushchev initiated his own campaign against the Russian Orthodox Church and forced the closure of about 12,000 churches. By 1985 fewer than 7,000 churches remained active. Members of the church hierarchy were jailed or forced out, their places taken by docile clergy, many of whom had ties with the KGB.

    Campaigns against other religions were closely associated with particular nationalities, especially if they recognized a foreign religious authority such as the Pope. By 1926, the Roman Catholic Church had no bishops left in the Soviet Union, and by 1941 only two of the almost 1,200 churches that had existed in 1917, mostly in Lithuania, were still active. The Ukrainian Catholic Church (Uniate), linked with Ukrainian nationalism, was forcibly subordinated in 1946 to the Russian Orthodox Church, and the Autocephalous Orthodox Churches of Belorussia and Ukraine were suppressed twice, in the late 1920s and again in 1944.

    Attacks on Judaism were endemic throughout the Soviet period, and the organized practice of Judaism became almost impossible. Protestant denominations and other sects were also persecuted. The All-Union Council of Evangelical Christian Baptists, established by the government in 1944, typically was forced to confine its activities to the narrow act of worship and denied most opportunities for religious teaching and publication. Fearful of a pan-Islamic movement, the Soviet regime systematically suppressed Islam by force, until 1941. The Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union that year led the government to adopt a policy of official toleration of Islam while actively encouraging atheism among Muslims.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      Not false at all pogroms ethnic and religious cleansing and persecution of Jews by Christians were common throughout the whole history of Europe since Rome regardless of who the ruling despot was, king emperor or dictator. In recent history it was Muslims in Yugoslavia.
      But you are lying again - I was speaking of atheist governments. And Christians did not play a large role, since for the most part Christians themselves were being purged.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #18
        There is a long history in Europe of pogroms and persecution of Jews by Christians.

        Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Jewish_pogroms_in_the_Russian_Empire



        The term "pogrom" in the meaning of large-scale, targeted, and repeated anti-Jewish rioting, saw its first use in the 19th century, in reference to the anti-Jewish pogroms in the Russian Empire. Pogroms began occurring after the Russian Empire, which previously had very few Jews, acquired territories with large Jewish populations during 1791-1835. These territories were designated "the Pale of Settlement" by the Russian government, within which Jews were reluctantly permitted to live, and it was within them that the pogroms largely took place. Most Jews were forbidden from moving to other parts of the Empire, unless they converted to Orthodox Christianity.

        © Copyright Original Source

        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          I did not misunderstand. The Violence against Jews under Stalin and Hitler were committed enthusiastically regardless of the views of the despotic rulers. This also occurred in Yugoslavia in more recent history except the victims were Muslims. Jews were considered 'Christ killers' and the passion plays in Europe fomented violence against the Jews.
          I think seer's point was about the murderous regime of Stalin (and others presumably) and did not relate specifically to violence against Jews, whether by Stalin or others while Stalin was in power. His point was merely that terrible violence has not only been done in the name of religion.
          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

          Comment


          • #20
            52 atheist leaders personally presided over the non-martial murder of at least 20,000 of their own citizens during peacetime, with a total body count exceeding over 160,000,000.

            Afghanistan: Nur Muhammad Taraki, Babrak Kamal
            Albania: Enver Hoxha
            Angola: Agostinho Neto, José Eduardo dos Santos
            Bulgaria: Vulko Chervenkov, Todor Zhivkov
            Cambodia: Pol Pot, Heng Samrin
            China: Mao Tse-Tung, Hua Guofeng, Deng Xiaoping, Jiang Zemin, Hu Jintau
            Cuba: Fidel Castro
            Czechoslovakia: Klement Gottwald, Antonín Zápotocký, Antonín Novotný, Gustáv Husák
            East Germany: Walter Ulbricht, Erich Honecker
            Ethiopia: Tafari Benti, Mengistu Haile Mariam
            French Republic: Jean-Marie Collot d'Herbois, Jacques Nicolas Billaud-Varenne
            Greece: Nikolaos Zachariadis
            Hungary: Mátyás Rákosi
            Laos: Kaysone Phomvihane, Khamtai Siphandone,
            Mongolia: Khorloogiin Choibalsan, Yumjaagiin Tsedenbal
            Mozambique: Samora Machel
            North Korea: Kim il-Sung, Kim Jong-il
            Poland: Władysław Gomułka, Boleslaw Bierut
            Romania: Gheorghe Gheorghiu-Dej, Nicolae Ceausescu
            Soviet Union: Vladimir Lenin, Joseph Stalin, Nikita Khrushchev, Leonid Brezhnev
            Spain: Manuel Azańa, Francisco Largo Caballero
            Vietnam: Ho Chi Minh, Le Duan, Truong Chinh, Nguyen Van Linh, Do Muoi, Le Kha Phieu, Nong Duc Manh
            Yugoslavia: Josip Broz Tito
            My Amazon Author page: https://www.amazon.com/-/e/B0719RS8BK

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by robrecht View Post
              I think seer's point was about the murderous regime of Stalin (and others presumably) and did not relate specifically to violence against Jews, whether by Stalin or others while Stalin was in power. His point was merely that terrible violence has not only been done in the name of religion.
              He did not make his point as supposedly clear as you are trying to make his point. Very odd.

              The fact is the history of Europe is a very violent one in terms of pogroms, persecution against Jews, and, of course, among Christians depending on who is in power. All through this violent religious history Jews were the predominate target since Rome was Rome. If you include the Middle East; the violence between Christians, Jews and Muslims has a rather interwoven history. The conflicts today between Christians, Jews and Muslims has deep bloody roots

              The bottom line is there are no angels in this bloody history.
              Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-15-2015, 08:02 PM.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                He did not make his point as supposedly clear as you are trying to make his point. Very odd.

                The fact is the history of Europe is a very violent one in terms of pogroms, persecution against Jews, and, of course, among Christians depending on who is in power. All through this violent religious history Jews were the predominate target since Rome was Rome.

                The bottom line is there are no angels in tis bloody history.
                His point seemed obvious enough to me. I don't think he ever said there were any angels in bloody history, rather the opposite. Just as religious people commit violence, so do atheists.
                βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                  His point seemed obvious enough to me. I don't think he ever said there were any angels in bloody history, rather the opposite. Just as religious people commit violence, so do atheists.
                  Exactly, and once again Shuny uses that as an excuse to attack Christians.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    There is a long history in Europe of pogroms and persecution of Jews by Christians.
                    Stop lying Shuny, I was speaking of atheistic governments.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      Historical records, these countries were predominately Christian.
                      China was predominantly Christian? Cambodia was predominantly Christian? Are you sure that is the position that you want to take here?

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Moderated By: rogue06


                        Let's please stop with the hurling of accusations of lying here

                        ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
                        Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.


                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Stop lying Shuny, I was speaking of atheistic governments.
                          The people do the dirty work for the governments. The pogroms, persecution, and ethnic cleansing are much older than any one despot, and continued regardless of who ruled.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            China was predominantly Christian? Cambodia was predominantly Christian? Are you sure that is the position that you want to take here?
                            I am and have been specifically referred to Europe. I am very sure of the position I want to take here. I never referred to China nor Cambodia.

                            The interwoven bloody history here involving Christians, Jews and Muslims in the topic of the thread involves Europe and the Middle East, NOT Asia.
                            Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-15-2015, 08:48 PM.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              I am and have been specifically referred to Europe. I am very sure of the position I want to take here. I never referred to China nor Cambodia.
                              But you claimed that seer was being misleading and he was not merely or specifically referring to Europe.
                              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                                But you claimed that seer was being misleading and he was not merely or specifically referring to Europe.
                                No I did not. I accused him of blaming only 'atheist' governments, or possibly atheists, as responsible. Actually he confirmed this.
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

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