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The Islamic State as a religious organization

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  • The Islamic State as a religious organization

    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...-wants/384980/
    Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

  • #2
    I read that article, I thought it provided a unique perspective into ISIS, and what ISIS thinks. of course it also shows why ISIS attracts those with a tendency toward Psychopathy as well from other places. (I also think that those involved in ISIS are Psychopaths)
    A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
    George Bernard Shaw

    Comment


    • #3
      This is a very interesting article. I've heard some of it before, and I have not yet finished the article, but thank you very much for posting it!
      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

      Comment


      • #4
        Perspectives that posit that a group of people are so different from a normal range of "human" that their behavior is incomprehensible should be questioned. A group/society is formed by people who have a variety of agendas and aspirations---but these are all the same human desires.

        When the U.S. attacked Iraq and Afghanistan---they had a lot of propaganda---WMD, Liberation, Imposing Democracy etc....regardless of the propaganda---the people who were keen on war had their own agendas---revenge, oil, geo-politics, profits...and so forth. Whatever the propaganda ISIS is putting out there---The U.S., the Saudi, the Jordanians, the Turks, the Baathists---and the gullible, foolish youngsters who support ISIS all have their agendas and desires.....

        It is very uncomfortable to look at the "other" and see our mirror image reflected back---it is better to see the other as different---"we could never be like that". But is Al-Qaeda all that different from France or U.S.?---When France was attacked---what did it do?---It bombed Syria---pretty much the same excuse of revenge that Al-Qaeda also used....and when it does so---what do Westerners do?--they cheer on---they say---we are with France--Je suis Paris and what not....they claim their "values" are attacked---so they must retaliate!!! same as what ISIS says---that Islam is being "attacked".....
        (meanwhile---no one in the West seems to be with Beruit which was also attacked by ISIS!!!)

        It is simply juvenile----Can we all not be better than this?



        http://time.com/4113615/paris-beirut-terror-attacks/

        http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a6736381.html

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by siam View Post
          Perspectives that posit that a group of people are so different from a normal range of "human" that their behavior is incomprehensible should be questioned. ...
          Whose perspective is that? Are you saying that is the perspective of Graeme Wood, the author of the article linked in the opening post of this thread?

          Originally posted by siam View Post
          A group/society is formed by people who have a variety of agendas and aspirations---but these are all the same human desires.

          When the U.S. attacked Iraq and Afghanistan---they had a lot of propaganda---WMD, Liberation, Imposing Democracy etc....regardless of the propaganda---the people who were keen on war had their own agendas---revenge, oil, geo-politics, profits...and so forth. Whatever the propaganda ISIS is putting out there---The U.S., the Saudi, the Jordanians, the Turks, the Baathists---and the gullible, foolish youngsters who support ISIS all have their agendas and desires.....

          It is very uncomfortable to look at the "other" and see our mirror image reflected back---it is better to see the other as different---"we could never be like that". But is Al-Qaeda all that different from France or U.S.?---When France was attacked---what did it do?---It bombed Syria---pretty much the same excuse of revenge that Al-Qaeda also used....and when it does so---what do Westerners do?--they cheer on---they say---we are with France--Je suis Paris and what not....they claim their "values" are attacked---so they must retaliate!!! same as what ISIS says---that Islam is being "attacked".....
          (meanwhile---no one in the West seems to be with Beruit which was also attacked by ISIS!!!)

          It is simply juvenile----Can we all not be better than this?

          http://time.com/4113615/paris-beirut-terror-attacks/

          http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a6736381.html
          Just curious. What do you think the US should have done, if anything, in response to the murder of 3,000 people on 9/11? As someone who did not support a prolonged war in Afghanistan or the invasion of Iraq, I have my own ideas about this. I'm curious to see if we might agree.
          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

          Comment


          • #6
            3,000 people at 9/11?----When the Germans killed 5 to 6 million Jews, the West/Europe used International Law to bring them to trail and give Justice. They had trials and a court and a transparent system. That is what a CIVILIZED people do. The use the rule of law to rectify an injustice done to them.
            ....ignorant barbarians endlessly kill each other.....

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by siam View Post
              3,000 people at 9/11?----When the Germans killed 5 to 6 million Jews, the West/Europe used International Law to bring them to trail and give Justice. They had trials and a court and a transparent system. That is what a CIVILIZED people do. The use the rule of law to rectify an injustice done to them.
              ....ignorant barbarians endlessly kill each other.....
              Don't forget that there was a little thing sometimes referred to as the second World War that was fought before the Nazi survivors could be tried at Nuremberg.

              I'm still wondering whose perspective you are identifying as 'positing that a group of people are so different from a normal range of "human" that their behavior is incomprehensible'. Are you saying that is the perspective of Graeme Wood, the author of the article linked in the opening post of this thread?
              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                Don't forget that there was a little thing sometimes referred to as the second World War that was fought before the Nazi survivors could be tried at Nuremberg.

                I'm still wondering whose perspective you are identifying as 'positing that a group of people are so different from a normal range of "human" that their behavior is incomprehensible'. Are you saying that is the perspective of Graeme Wood, the author of the article linked in the opening post of this thread?
                I don't understand the connection between WW2 and Nuremburg?...elaborate?

                Nazi's escaped so the those seeking Justice had a much more difficult time....but with Al-Qaeda---Saudi and Pakistan were both U.S. allies AND the Taliban (in Afghanistan) were Wahabists the same as Saudi's---The U.S. was surrounded by allies who would have helped get Justice if that was what they had wanted----the U.S. wanted war not Justice.

                All those people who conflate Islam with ISIS and propose that Islam/Muslims are uniquely evil because their "unique beliefs" make them so.....Beliefs are a factor in all human conduct---though they are not the only factor....and this is the case for all human conduct whether in war or peace.
                here is someone who thinks ISIS is a fascist (Fascism---a Modern Western Movement)http://mondoweiss.net/2015/11/isis-fascist-movement

                I think they are criminal gangsters---the people who are supplying these criminals with the weapons to cause harm are the U.S., Europe and Russia---ironically---one might say the French supplied ISIS with the weapons that caused the harm in Paris!! But if ISIS are criminals---what are the French?---they were here bombing innocent Syrians too!!!...and are doing so now in revenge!!! .....are they any better than ISIS?
                Here is what one Rabbi says about Paris
                http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/20...of-generosity/

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by siam View Post
                  I don't understand the connection between WW2 and Nuremburg?...elaborate?
                  There never would have been any Nuremburg trials if the Nazis had not been defeated in World War 2. Do you imagine that the Nazis would have tried otherwise? Who would have brought them to justice?

                  Originally posted by siam View Post
                  Nazi's escaped so the those seeking Justice had a much more difficult time....but with Al-Qaeda---Saudi and Pakistan were both U.S. allies AND the Taliban (in Afghanistan) were Wahabists the same as Saudi's---The U.S. was surrounded by allies who would have helped get Justice if that was what they had wanted----the U.S. wanted war not Justice.
                  Osama bin Laden and many of the 9/11 terrorists were themselves Saudis. I think it would have been much better if the regional Islamic powers had indeed brought bin Laden to justice. If I recall correctly, once the bombing had started, I think the Taliban was willing to turn over bin Laden to some type of court, but not directly to the United States, where his crimes were committed. Surely that would have been better than an invasion of Afghanistan.

                  Originally posted by siam View Post
                  All those people who conflate Islam with ISIS and propose that Islam/Muslims are uniquely evil because their "unique beliefs" make them so.....Beliefs are a factor in all human conduct---though they are not the only factor....and this is the case for all human conduct whether in war or peace.
                  here is someone who thinks ISIS is a fascist (Fascism---a Modern Western Movement)http://mondoweiss.net/2015/11/isis-fascist-movement

                  I think they are criminal gangsters---the people who are supplying these criminals with the weapons to cause harm are the U.S., Europe and Russia---ironically---one might say the French supplied ISIS with the weapons that caused the harm in Paris!! But if ISIS are criminals---what are the French?---they were here bombing innocent Syrians too!!!...and are doing so now in revenge!!! .....are they any better than ISIS?
                  Here is what one Rabbi says about Paris
                  http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/20...of-generosity/
                  How do you propose that these criminal gangsters be brought to justice?
                  Last edited by robrecht; 11-20-2015, 01:34 AM.
                  βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                  ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                  אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                    There never would have been any Nuremburg trials if the Nazis had not been defeated in World War 2. Do you imagine that the Nazis would have tried otherwise? Who would have brought them to justice?

                    How do you propose that these criminal gangsters be brought to justice?
                    The assumption behind the first question is interesting---I suppose you believe in original sin and that all humanity is depraved/sinful?.....perhaps this gives you a pessimistic view of humanity? It seems to me, that the assumption behind this question is that humanity will not be good unless forced to be so by someone powerful....?....

                    In my tradition, humanity is seen as essentially/inherently good---those who do evil are going against/rebelling against their own human nature/human tendency. If such a trail had not taken place one would have to question the inadequacy of Western Justice. At any rate---Interpol does just fine in catching international criminals....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpol

                    However, your point about power brings up the exceptions of WW2 Justice---the exemption of Britian and the U.S. from war crimes (Dresden, Hiroshima/Nagasaki)---So indeed---Western Justice is about how the weak have to pay for crimes that the strong get away with....!!!...

                    ISIS and others like it---These criminals are operating in areas that have a power vacuum---a lawless territory. The first thing is to convince the neighbours (countries) in the territory to stop using these criminals for their own political agendas---to stop financing them, to stop buying their oil, and to help police/military entities catch them to bring them to a fair and just trail. One also has to hold Western and Russian countries accountable for the supply of weapons and ammunition---this must stop---all financing and assets for western/russian weapons manufacturers must stop/be frozen. Instead these frozen assets should be used to buy back all weapons and ammunition from the lawless region at high prices. Courts should be set up so that law and order can be restored---with it will come security---the criminals can be tried fairly and inter-tribal disputes and other matters of perceived or real injustice can be addressed. It is a common sense principle that without a strong system of Just Law---a State cannot be built.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by siam View Post
                      The assumption behind the first question is interesting---I suppose you believe in original sin and that all humanity is depraved/sinful?.....perhaps this gives you a pessimistic view of humanity? It seems to me, that the assumption behind this question is that humanity will not be good unless forced to be so by someone powerful....?....
                      No, I am just speaking of the particulars of history. Who do you imagine would have brought Nazi war criminals to justice if they had not been defeated in World War II?

                      Originally posted by siam View Post
                      In my tradition, humanity is seen as essentially/inherently good---those who do evil are going against/rebelling against their own human nature/human tendency. If such a trail had not taken place one would have to question the inadequacy of Western Justice. At any rate---Interpol does just fine in catching international criminals....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpol

                      However, your point about power brings up the exceptions of WW2 Justice---the exemption of Britian and the U.S. from war crimes (Dresden, Hiroshima/Nagasaki)---So indeed---Western Justice is about how the weak have to pay for crimes that the strong get away with....!!!...

                      ISIS and others like it---These criminals are operating in areas that have a power vacuum---a lawless territory. The first thing is to convince the neighbours (countries) in the territory to stop using these criminals for their own political agendas---to stop financing them, to stop buying their oil, and to help police/military entities catch them to bring them to a fair and just trail. One also has to hold Western and Russian countries accountable for the supply of weapons and ammunition---this must stop---all financing and assets for western/russian weapons manufacturers must stop/be frozen. Instead these frozen assets should be used to buy back all weapons and ammunition from the lawless region at high prices. Courts should be set up so that law and order can be restored---with it will come security---the criminals can be tried fairly and inter-tribal disputes and other matters of perceived or real injustice can be addressed. It is a common sense principle that without a strong system of Just Law---a State cannot be built.
                      So who is able to do this convincing of the neighbors of ISIS to catch them and bring them to a fair trial? Who is going to hold Western and Russian countries accountable? Doesn't ISIS believe that it is setting up a just Islamic society?
                      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Who? ---We the people. The citizens of the world have to convince our governments who are supposed to represent our interests that we want peace. Divestment, boycotts and protests are one way to convince multinational corporations to be more ethical....

                        The Taliban were neither "just" nor "Islamic" despite their claims---but the Afghan people who were tired of war, were willing to put up with even an unjust system of law if it would bring peace and security. Just as the American people are willing to put up with inconveniences, injustices and limitations on their liberties to get security and peace. But at some point or the other---people will always demand more freedoms, more justice, more equality...its just human nature---our aspirations and desires are essentially similar no matter what culture, ethnicity, religion or geographical location we may be in.
                        If people have only bad options to choose from---they will choose the least bad option---like American citizens do when it comes to their elections----but if a better alternative---one that gives people peace, security and eventually prosperity can be offered---they will choose that. We have international organizations and leaders who can negotiate diplomacy. We have international courts, we have international police/investigators/military and we have international aid organizations and other entities that can provide support....the infrastructure is there---they just need a mandate and a blueprint....

                        Here is one idea----
                        http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/20...is/#more-58376

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Actual interviews with ISIS fighters say they are doing it to feed their families (ISIS reportedly pays a lot of money) and they would not if they had a choice...
                          http://www.thenation.com/article/wha...sis-prisoners/

                          ....a statement from the interview....

                          During more informal questioning about his family and tribe comes this telling statement: “We need the war to be over, we need security, we are tired of so much war…. all I want is to be with my family, my children.”

                          ....another snippet from the article---
                          "More pertinent than Islamic theology is that there are other, much more convincing, explanations as to why they’ve fought for the side they did. At the end of the interview with the first prisoner we ask, “Do you have any questions for us?” For the first time since he came into the room he smiles—in surprise—and finally tells us what really motivated him, without any prompting. He knows there is an American in the room, and can perhaps guess, from his demeanor and his questions, that this American is ex-military, and directs his “question,” in the form of an enraged statement, straight at him. “The Americans came,” he said. “They took away Saddam, but they also took away our security. I didn’t like Saddam, we were starving then, but at least we didn’t have war. When you came here, the civil war started.”

                          ISIS is the first group since Al Qaeda to offer these young men a way to defend their dignity, family, and tribe.
                          This whole experience has been very familiar indeed to Doug Stone, the American general on the receiving end of this diatribe. “He fits the absolutely typical profile,” Stone said afterward. “The average age of all the prisoners in Iraq when I was here was 27; they were married; they had two children; had got to sixth to eighth grade. He has exactly the same profile as 80 percent of the prisoners then…and his number-one complaint about the security and against all American forces was the exact same complaint from every single detainee.”

                          ---see research by Scott Atran for more info----

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by siam View Post
                            Perspectives that posit that a group of people are so different from a normal range of "human" that their behavior is incomprehensible should be questioned. ...
                            I'm still trying to get your take on this article by Graeme Wood. Do you think it is accurate in its portrayal of ISIS and their view of Islamic ideals?
                            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                              I'm still trying to get your take on this article by Graeme Wood. Do you think it is accurate in its portrayal of ISIS and their view of Islamic ideals?
                              Umm...No

                              Lets look at some Quranic examples:

                              [4:90] Exempted are those who join people with whom you have signed a peace treaty, and those who come to you wishing not to fight you, nor fight their relatives. Had GOD willed, He could have permitted them to fight against you. Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them.

                              [4:93] Anyone who kills a believer on purpose, his retribution is Hell, wherein he abides forever, GOD is angry with him, and condemns him, and has prepared for him a terrible retribution.

                              [4:94] O you who believe, if you strike in the cause of GOD, you shall be absolutely sure. Do not say to one who offers you peace, "You are not a believer," seeking the spoils of this world. For GOD possesses infinite spoils. Remember that you used to be like them, and GOD blessed you. Therefore, you shall be absolutely sure (before you strike). GOD is fully Cognizant of everything you do.

                              Therefore its quite clear, if people do not wish to fight you, you cannot fight them. And if you kill a believer (note: it doesn't say Muslim but a believer) then the recompense is hell. So Isis killing Christians, Muslims, Yazidis, Non-Muslims, etc, they are people of the hell fire. Notice, you must also be sure in times of war that you don't kill believers. So when Isis shoots down a plane, or opens fire at a restaurant, they in no way investigated the back ground of these people, they just opened fire. They are people of hell.

                              Comment

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