David Wood On The Paris Attacks

[Scrawly]

Here is an interesting video. David Wood mentions the tendency of many, and many Muslims, to quote verse 5:32 of the Quran and leave out the next verse, 5:33. This is worth a watch:

[Cow Poke]

Watched the whole thing- I've seen this guy before. Very well versed in Islam.

[Cerebrum123]

Watched the whole thing- I've seen this guy before. Very well versed in Islam.

I like the video "Islam's Secret Santa".

[siam]

Wood has the same degree of understanding of Islam that Richard Dawkins might have of Christianity.

...For those who might want to understand the Islamic perspective----

32 On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone slew a person/soul (nafs)--unless it be for murder or spreading mischief in the land---it would be as if he slew a whole peoples and if one saved a life, it would be as if for the whole peoples. Then although there came to them signs, yet, even after that many of them continued to commit excess in the land.

33. The punishment of those who wage war against God and his messenger, and strive with might and main for mishcief through the land is; execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world and a heavy punishment is theirs in the hereafter

34. Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: In that case know that God is Most Forgiving Most Merciful.

these verses are part of a longer narrative---that of Cain and Abel which starts from verse 27. The story is brief--it explains that, of the two sacrifices, one was accepted (by God) and the other was not---the predisposition of one brother, coupled with the circumstances they found themselves in, led to one brother killing the other. Verse 31 is particularly interesting---it relates how God sent a raven to teach Cain and he came to know remorse and was regretful.

It was on THIS account that the wisdom (law) in the Talmud was revealed. Anyone familiar with Jewish law (Halakha) would know that it has the death penalty for Treason (as do many Western/secular laws)---that is the exception the Quran is talking about in verse 32---that killing human beings is wrong----but there are a couple of exceptions to this rule in order to promote Justice. (human beings have the right to seek Justice when wronged) verse 33 goes on to give other options for Muslim Law---options other than the death penalty---for Treason.....but as verse 34 points out---the ultimate purpose of Justice is not punishment but repentance and when a person repents then they are forgiven. This ties back into the story of Cain and how he felt remorse (verse 31)

The whole lesson here is that the application of law is for the purpose of Justice and the purpose of Justice is to allow for repentance (and forgiveness)---because repentence is the method of healing moral injury/healing the soul.

[Scrawly]

Wood has the same degree of understanding of Islam that Richard Dawkins might have of Christianity.

I disagree. He has debated many Muslims, and has fared quite well from what I've seen. Precisely what have you seen or read of his that you find comparable to Dawkins' critiques against Christianity?

...For those who might want to understand the Islamic perspective----

32 On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone slew a person/soul (nafs)--unless it be for murder or spreading mischief in the land---it would be as if he slew a whole peoples and if one saved a life, it would be as if for the whole peoples. Then although there came to them signs, yet, even after that many of them continued to commit excess in the land.

33. The punishment of those who wage war against God and his messenger, and strive with might and main for mishcief through the land is; execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world and a heavy punishment is theirs in the hereafter

34. Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: In that case know that God is Most Forgiving Most Merciful.

these verses are part of a longer narrative---that of Cain and Abel which starts from verse 27. The story is brief--it explains that, of the two sacrifices, one was accepted (by God) and the other was not---the predisposition of one brother, coupled with the circumstances they found themselves in, led to one brother killing the other. Verse 31 is particularly interesting---it relates how God sent a raven to teach Cain and he came to know remorse and was regretful.

It was on THIS account that the wisdom (law) in the Talmud was revealed. Anyone familiar with Jewish law (Halakha) would know that it has the death penalty for Treason (as do many Western/secular laws)---that is the exception the Quran is talking about in verse 32---that killing human beings is wrong----but there are a couple of exceptions to this rule in order to promote Justice. (human beings have the right to seek Justice when wronged) verse 33 goes on to give other options for Muslim Law---options other than the death penalty---for Treason.....but as verse 34 points out---the ultimate purpose of Justice is not punishment but repentance and when a person repents then they are forgiven. This ties back into the story of Cain and how he felt remorse (verse 31)

The whole lesson here is that the application of law is for the purpose of Justice and the purpose of Justice is to allow for repentance (and forgiveness)---because repentence is the method of healing moral injury/healing the soul.

I find your interpretation lacking because it seems to fail to take into consideration the entire context of chapter 5 which, if read, will demonstrate that Christian's and Jew's or any supposed unbeliever cannot properly repent unless they convert to Islam as per verse 5:73-74 (speaking specifically to Christian's here):

"They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no Allah save the One Allah. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve. So will they not repent to Allah and seek His forgiveness? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

Now, let's say, for example, we have a remnant of Christian's living in an Islamic-ruled world persisting in their beliefs and perhaps going out to peacefully evangelize - do you think they would be perceived as causing corruption and mischief in the Islamic-dominated world? Do you think they would be perceived as being in state of unbelief that is fundamentally at war with Allah and Muhammad? What do you think the antidote to such behavior would be in this Islamic-dominated world? Do you think perhaps verse 5:33 - "Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment" - would come into effect? Why or why not?

[siam]

@ Scrawley
I am not interested in Wood---but would like to engage some of the points and questions you raised regarding Sura 5.

Muslims should take in the context of the entire Surah as well as the entire Quran (as well as historical context) when attempting interpretations. This Surah starts off by explaining the dietary laws---similar laws called Kashrut were given to Jews before. The Jewish and Christian scriptures are from the SAME ONE God. Because of this concept, Verse 5 allows Muslims to eat Kashrut.

Verse 8 further explains about Justice, Fairness, Equity...."O you who believe. Stand firmly for God as witnesses to fair dealing and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from Justice. Be Just: that is next to piety: and have awe of God foe God is well acquainted with what you do."
In verse 16, the Quran advocates for peaceful dealings..."Wherein God Guides all who seek his good pleasure to ways of peace and safety, and leads them out of darkness, by his will, to the light--guides them to a path that is straight. Verses 44/45 onwards further explains Jewish law and asks the Jews and Christians to live by the laws given to them---verse 47 (partial) Let the people of the Injil(Gospel) judge by what God has revealed to them therein...." and the reason is explained in verse 48 which states that the new scripture (Quran) comes in truth, confirming those truths that exist in the previous scriptures....and further states "....To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, he would have made you a single people, but he tests you in what he has given you so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God: It is he that will show you the truth of the matters in which you dispute."

verse 68. Say O people of the book! You have no ground to stand upon unless you stand fast by the Torah, the Gospel and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord. It is the revelation that comes to you from your Lord that increases in most of them their obstinacy and rebellion. But sorrow not over those who have no faith.
verse 68. Those who believe in the Quran. Those who follow the Jewish scriptures. And the Sabians, and the Christians, any who believe in God and the last day, and work righteousness----on them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve."

All of these verses are an example of how the Quran advocates the "right to conscience" ---that human groups have the right to their own ethico-moral laws and their own way of life. Where differences arise between these philosophies---they must be left upto God to Judge. The particular difference between Islam and Christianity is highlighted in verses 72-77---but as verse 74 reiterates---God is Most forgiving, Most Merciful. The goal of humanity is not to fight wars over differences---but to compete with each other to be better human beings. ("...but he tests you in what he has given you so strive as in a race in all virtues. ...")

...and so in history---Jews and Christians in Islamic territories were allowed to practice their "deen" (way of life and laws)

















'

[Cow Poke]

---that killing human beings is wrong----

So, let's get to the part where clearly and loudly condemn the violence against France, the suicide bombings, the hatred of Israel, the teaching that Israelis are dogs and monkeys, the declaration that Israel needs to be wiped from the face of the earth....

[mrcurious]

what a joke

[rogue06]

what a joke

Are you introducing yourself?

[Cow Poke]

Are you introducing yourself?

And he backed up his introduction with action!