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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    Hmm...quite amusing, lets see if you laugh at this:

    Deuteronomy 13:12-17

    12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in 13 that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely,[b] both its people and its livestock. 16 You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt, 17 and none of the condemned things[c] are to be found in your hands.

    I wonder if you will be laughing at your own book...

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcurious View Post
    Hmm...quite amusing, lets see if you laugh at this:

    Deuteronomy 13:12-17

    12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in 13 that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely,[b] both its people and its livestock. 16 You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt, 17 and none of the condemned things[c] are to be found in your hands.

    I wonder if you will be laughing at your own book...
    There is certainly nothing in these verses to laugh at, but what do they have to do with the topic of this thread?
    The brutal, soul-shaking truth is that we are so earthly minded we are of no heavenly use.
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    https://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by theophilus View Post
    There is certainly nothing in these verses to laugh at, but what do they have to do with the topic of this thread?
    I stated that Muhammad did not spread the religion by the sword, and Bill the Cat decides to laugh at my statement, so I decided to really show him which religion spread by the sword and didn't allow for freedom of beliefs.

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    God, family, chicken! Bill the Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcurious View Post
    Hmm...quite amusing, lets see if you laugh at this:

    Deuteronomy 13:12-17

    12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in 13 that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely,[b] both its people and its livestock. 16 You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt, 17 and none of the condemned things[c] are to be found in your hands.

    I wonder if you will be laughing at your own book...
    I have no doubt that the Holy Land was conquered at God's behest, and many people died as a result. Why is Islam so afraid to acknowledge that same belief?


    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals --- Manya the Holy Szin --- The Quintara Marathon ---

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common --- Stephen R. Donaldson ---

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcurious View Post
    I stated that Muhammad did not spread the religion by the sword, and Bill the Cat decides to laugh at my statement, so I decided to really show him which religion spread by the sword and didn't allow for freedom of beliefs.
    If you really think Muhammad didn't spread Islam by war, then you are exactly the troll others believe you to be.

    Source: http://www.historynet.com/muhammad-the-warrior-prophet.htm


    The idea of Muhammad as a military man will be new to many. Yet he was a truly great general. In the space of a single decade he fought eight major battles, led eighteen raids, and planned another thirty-eight military operations where others were in command but operating under his orders and strategic direction. Wounded twice, he also twice experienced having his positions overrun by superior forces before he managed to turn the tables on his enemies and rally his men to victory. More than a great field general and tactician, he was also a military theorist, organizational reformer, strategic thinker, operational-level combat commander, political-military leader, heroic soldier, and revolutionary.

    In his thinking and application of force Muhammad was a combination of Karl von Clause*witz and Niccolo Machiavelli, for he always employed force in the service of political goals. An astute grand strategist, he used non*mili*tary methods (alliance building, politi*cal assassination, bribery, religious appeals, mercy, and calculated butchery) to strengthen his long-term position, sometimes even at the expense of short-term military considerations.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals --- Manya the Holy Szin --- The Quintara Marathon ---

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common --- Stephen R. Donaldson ---

  6. Amen theophilus, klaus54 amen'd this post.
  7. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    If you really think Muhammad didn't spread Islam by war, then you are exactly the troll others believe you to be.

    Source: http://www.historynet.com/muhammad-the-warrior-prophet.htm


    The idea of Muhammad as a military man will be new to many. Yet he was a truly great general. In the space of a single decade he fought eight major battles, led eighteen raids, and planned another thirty-eight military operations where others were in command but operating under his orders and strategic direction. Wounded twice, he also twice experienced having his positions overrun by superior forces before he managed to turn the tables on his enemies and rally his men to victory. More than a great field general and tactician, he was also a military theorist, organizational reformer, strategic thinker, operational-level combat commander, political-military leader, heroic soldier, and revolutionary.

    In his thinking and application of force Muhammad was a combination of Karl von Clause*witz and Niccolo Machiavelli, for he always employed force in the service of political goals. An astute grand strategist, he used non*mili*tary methods (alliance building, politi*cal assassination, bribery, religious appeals, mercy, and calculated butchery) to strengthen his long-term position, sometimes even at the expense of short-term military considerations.

    © Copyright Original Source

    Wow did you even bother to read my comment??? I said muhammad did not spread Islam by the sword does not mean that muhammad did not go to war. Yes of course Muhammad went to war and the Quran explains this. It also explains that they were defensive wars and if people didn't want to convert to Islam during war or any other time they didn't have to in order to live. The difference between us is I showed proof from the bible that God in the old testament wanted the religion spread by the sword. I didn't use a historians research or opinion. Can you show Quranic proof Islam ordered people to convert or die?

    Funny thing is islamophobes go on about how evil Isis is for killing people if they don't convert (which theyvare right) but don't say a word about the very same tactic in the bible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcurious View Post
    Wow did you even bother to read my comment??? I said muhammad did not spread Islam by the sword does not mean that muhammad did not go to war.
    To spread Islam.

    Yes of course Muhammad went to war and the Quran explains this. It also explains that they were defensive wars and if people didn't want to convert to Islam during war or any other time they didn't have to in order to live.
    That's a truckload of BS.

    "The Prophet had suddenly attacked Bani Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as captives" (Bukhari 46:717)

    [Muhammad] said, “Woe to you, Abu Sufyan, isn’t it time that you recognize that I am Allah’s apostle?” He (Abu Sufyan) answered, “As to that I still have some doubt.” I (the narrator) said to him, “Submit and testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the apostle of Allah before you lose your head,” so he did so. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 814)

    (They embraced Islam because) they were defeated at your hands (and as such their Islam is not dependable). (Sahih Muslim 4453)

    The apostle told them to tell Malik that if he came to him as a Muslim he would return his family and property to him and give him a hundred camels. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 879)

    “Testify that none has the right to be worshipped except Allah, or else I will chop off your neck." (Bukhari 59:643)

    Then the apostle sent Khalid bin Walid… to the Banu al-Harith and ordered him to invite them to Islam three days before he attacked them. If they accepted then he was to accept it from them; and if they declined he was to fight them. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 959)

    The difference between us is I showed proof from the bible that God in the old testament wanted the religion spread by the sword.
    No you didn't. There was no indication that Judaism was being spread in the verse you puked up. Non-Jews were forbidden from converting unless they voluntarily chose to do so. Forced conversion was an abomination to YHWH.

    I didn't use a historians research or opinion.
    Which is plain sloppy.

    Can you show Quranic proof Islam ordered people to convert or die?
    Yes.

    Funny thing is islamophobes
    Please show from the DSM-5, which lists all currently diagnosed phobias, what page the diagnosis "islamophobia" is on.

    go on about how evil Isis is for killing people if they don't convert (which theyvare right) but don't say a word about the very same tactic in the bible.
    The Bible lists NO compulsion to convert to Judaism in any of the decrees to destroy enemies.


    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals --- Manya the Holy Szin --- The Quintara Marathon ---

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common --- Stephen R. Donaldson ---

  9. Amen Scrawly amen'd this post.
  10. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    To spread Islam.
    Umm..No, go read verse 9:13 of the Quran, that verse for example, states that the Muslims were attacked first by the pagans and thus why they were fighting them. It also states earlier in the sura of the pagans that did not attack the muslims they were not to be harmed.



    That's a truckload of BS.

    "The Prophet had suddenly attacked Bani Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as captives" (Bukhari 46:717)

    [Muhammad] said, “Woe to you, Abu Sufyan, isn’t it time that you recognize that I am Allah’s apostle?” He (Abu Sufyan) answered, “As to that I still have some doubt.” I (the narrator) said to him, “Submit and testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the apostle of Allah before you lose your head,” so he did so. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 814)

    (They embraced Islam because) they were defeated at your hands (and as such their Islam is not dependable). (Sahih Muslim 4453)

    The apostle told them to tell Malik that if he came to him as a Muslim he would return his family and property to him and give him a hundred camels. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 879)

    “Testify that none has the right to be worshipped except Allah, or else I will chop off your neck." (Bukhari 59:643)

    Then the apostle sent Khalid bin Walid… to the Banu al-Harith and ordered him to invite them to Islam three days before he attacked them. If they accepted then he was to accept it from them; and if they declined he was to fight them. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 959)
    Here is your problem NOT ONE QURANIC VERSE! Hadith, if it contradicts the quran is rejected.

    4:90
    Except for those who take refuge with a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty or those who come to you, their hearts strained at [the prospect of] fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had willed, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them.


    Do you think I'm going to quote the Gospel of Philip or the Gospel of Mary Magdalene to reference Jesus or Christianity? Nope.

    No you didn't. There was no indication that Judaism was being spread in the verse you puked up. Non-Jews were forbidden from converting unless they voluntarily chose to do so. Forced conversion was an abomination to YHWH.
    Did you not read the verses? It clearly stated those who wanted to worship other gods and told their people to go and worship other gods, if true, were to be killed. That's having no freedom of religion and getting killed if your beliefs differed from the old testament.


    Yes.
    There is no point of even dealing with you. You don't know the difference between hadith and quran. I told you give me QURANIC proof of forced conversion. Not Hadith.



    Please show from the DSM-5, which lists all currently diagnosed phobias, what page the diagnosis "islamophobia" is on.
    I'll show this instead:
    islamophobia (or anti-Muslim sentiment) is the prejudice against, hatred towards, or fear of the religion of Islam or Muslims. The term entered into common English usage in 1997 with the publication of a report by the Runnymede Trust condemning negative emotions such as fear, hatred, and dread directed at Islam or Muslims.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia

    The Bible lists NO compulsion to convert to Judaism in any of the decrees to destroy enemies.
    You're right there is no compulsion, its just kill the enemy that doesn't believe in the God of the Jews (reference to the old testament). Just to be clear, you are ok with God of the Old Testament to order the killing of people who wanted to worship other Gods besides him.

  11. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcurious View Post
    Umm..No, go read verse 9:13 of the Quran, that verse for example, states that the Muslims were attacked first by the pagans and thus why they were fighting them. It also states earlier in the sura of the pagans that did not attack the muslims they were not to be harmed.
    So, their "great prophet" didn't bother following the very instructions given him by God?



    Here is your problem NOT ONE QURANIC VERSE! Hadith, if it contradicts the quran is rejected.
    The Hadiths are historical records, so no. They aren't rejected as records of what happened, so

    4:90
    Except for those who take refuge with a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty or those who come to you, their hearts strained at [the prospect of] fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had willed, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them.


    Do you think I'm going to quote the Gospel of Philip or the Gospel of Mary Magdalene to reference Jesus or Christianity? Nope.
    If they were reliable as far as a historical event was concerned, then it would be absolutely proper to cite it.


    Did you not read the verses? It clearly stated those who wanted to worship other gods and told their people to go and worship other gods, if true, were to be killed. That's having no freedom of religion and getting killed if your beliefs differed from the old testament.
    It's not spreading Judaism by war though, so



    There is no point of even dealing with you. You don't know the difference between hadith and quran. I told you give me QURANIC proof of forced conversion. Not Hadith.
    I gave you historical recordings of where "Convert or die" was mandated by Muhammad himself. The fact that you refuse to admit error shows who is the unreasonable one...



    I'll show this instead:
    WIKIPEDIA??? Islamophobia is on the same intellectually bankrupt level as "homophobia". Both words are complete misnomers, and are insulting to those who have legitimately diagnosed phobias.


    You're right there is no compulsion, its just kill the enemy that doesn't believe in the God of the Jews (reference to the old testament).
    Therefore, not like Islam. Thank you for admitting that.

    Just to be clear, you are ok with God of the Old Testament to order the killing of people who wanted to worship other Gods besides him.
    Yes, at that time. Because it was literally "kill or be killed" in that era. But that would take more than just a basic surface level understanding of the ANE in the Bronze Age that you don't seem to want to pursue.


    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals --- Manya the Holy Szin --- The Quintara Marathon ---

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common --- Stephen R. Donaldson ---

  12. Amen theophilus amen'd this post.
  13. #20
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    So, their "great prophet" didn't bother following the very instructions given him by God?
    He absolutely did, the polytheists who kept their oath and abided by the agreed upon treaty were not harmed. The quran describes this and all Muslims believe the Quran to be divine and without error or dispute.


    The Hadiths are historical records, so no. They aren't rejected as records of what happened, so
    You realize not all Hadiths are accepted??? There are hadiths that are considered "weak" and narrators who are "not reliable." Its actually quite pathetic how you cherry picked hadiths. You quoted 3 of them from Ibn Ishaq who, amongst scholars, was rejected. You also quoted a partial hadith from a woman named Umm Sulaim who gave her opinion about the polytheists converting to Islam because they were defeated. And you quoted a hadith about the surprise attack on Banu Mustaliq, had you done any research, would have known that they were mounting an attack on the muslims before the Muslims attacked them since they aligned with the Quraish who were enemies of the Muslims at the time. Your problem is you take ANY hadith that supports your claims. There are hadiths of peace I can throw here, but the Quran is good to debate you.

    If they were reliable as far as a historical event was concerned, then it would be absolutely proper to cite it.
    You haven't shown any evidence that they are reliable. Muslims believe that if a hadith contradicts the Quran it is to be rejected. Besides many of the hadith books were compiled hundreds of years after the death of Muhammad.


    It's not spreading Judaism by war though, so
    You can make all the faces you want to make yourself feel better the fact is, there was no freedom of religion at the time and anyone who wanted to worship other Gods was to be killed. That is what I call barbaric and very ISIS like.


    I gave you historical recordings of where "Convert or die" was mandated by Muhammad himself. The fact that you refuse to admit error shows who is the unreasonable one...
    No you didn't, in fact you gave NO hadiths that were direct words of Muhammad. And I told you Ibn Ishaq is not reliable.

    The most widely discussed criticism of his sīra was that of his contemporary Mālik ibn Anas.[3] Mālik rejected the stories of Muhammad and the Jews of Medina on the ground that they were taken solely based on accounts by sons of Jewish converts.[21] These same stories have also been denounced as "odd tales" (gharāʾib) later by ibn Hajar al-Asqalani.[21] Mālik and others also thought that ibn Isḥāq exhibited Qadari tendencies, had a preference for Ali (Guillaume also found evidence of this, pp. xxii &xxiv),[3] and relied too heavily on what were later called the Isrā'īlīyāt. Furthermore, early literary critics, like ibn Sallām al-Jumaḥī and ibn al-Nadīm, censured ibn Isḥāq for knowingly including forged poems in his biography,[3] and for attributing poems to persons not known to have written any poetry.[13] The 14th-century historian al-Dhahabī, using hadith terminology, noted that in addition to the forged (makdhūb) poetry, Ibn Isḥāq filled his sīra with many munqaṭiʿ (broken chain of narration) and munkar (suspect narrator) reports.[22]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Is...ABl_All.C4.81h

    WIKIPEDIA??? Islamophobia is on the same intellectually bankrupt level as "homophobia". Both words are complete misnomers, and are insulting to those who have legitimately diagnosed phobias.
    I stick by the definition I cited about what Islamophobia is and I believe that definition applies to many of the people on these forums.


    Therefore, not like Islam. Thank you for admitting that.
    Way to make your case...You are saying that being killed for believing in another God is not what Islam teaches and thus different from the Old Testament. Yes I will gladly admit that. The teachings of the Old Testament are barbaric.



    Yes, at that time. Because it was literally "kill or be killed" in that era. But that would take more than just a basic surface level understanding of the ANE in the Bronze Age that you don't seem to want to pursue.
    Well we have it very clear, you support the death of people who simply wanted to believe and practice a different ideology than the one of the Old Testament at that time. I don't care about which era it was in, the principal of no freedom of religion is disgusting and you support it. What is the difference between those Old Testament verses I quoted and the ideology of ISIS who also kill people just because they don't believe in their version of Islam?

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