Transgender CHILD confusion

[Papa Zoom]

I've had two transgender students myself, and there were no "bathroom issues," but I can sympathize with the awkwardness. Even in my case, with adult students, and myself being naturally accepting, it's not something you can sit down and discuss with them, and without that, it's hard to come to an understanding. It's not like gays, mostly because there are so many more gays that you can deal with them as part of a community. Trans students don't seem to show up more than one at a time.

I can't imagine how hard it would be to deal with the issue with a second-grader. Then again, I'd find it hard to talk about any adult issue with a second-grader.

I've read a few books by a "former" trans and even corresponded with the author several times. I ended up learning a lot but am more confused than before. There's a lot of misinformation out there.

[Starlight]

A sixteen year old male-to-female was given the choice of a partitioned off area in the girl's shower and he said that wasn't good enough. He didn't want to be treated differently. The Feds agreed with him (her).

That outcome makes me uncomfortable.

Although I still think it's weird you guys seem to have so many open shower areas. That's pretty unusual here... it's all individual cubicles.

[Cow Poke]

That outcome makes me uncomfortable.

Although I still think it's weird you guys seem to have so many open shower areas. That's pretty unusual here... it's all individual cubicles.

I think the designers of the American school system - a bunch of liberals - were sadistic. It's one of the most horrific aspects of public school - having to take showers in groups.

[Papa Zoom]

That outcome makes me uncomfortable.

Although I still think it's weird you guys seem to have so many open shower areas. That's pretty unusual here... it's all individual cubicles.

I'm told that most kids don't shower at school anyway. They wait until they get home. Mostly they just use the dressing room. Still, what parent wants their 16 year old daughter exposed to some guy's twig and berries?

Here's another tid-bit from my training. If you're a 13 year old kid, and you leave home in your boy clothes, but change to a dress and makeup at school, the school, by law, cannot tell the parents this. For example, if the transgender student is in a counselor's office, and the counselor is talking to the parent on the phone, the counselor will refer to the student as his biological gender (he, him etc) but to the student they will use she and her. It's up to the student to tell the parents. Not the school.

So if the parent says, "Johnny doesn't seem very interested in doing much. He's very depressed at home and I'm worried. Are there signs of any unusual things happening at school?"

The counselor will say, "Not that I'm aware." Even though Johnny is in the counselor's office, in a dress, putting on his/her makeup. That's how crazy this is at the moment.

If you think this is the end of it, think again. There's much much more to come.

Which is why I'm starting to identify as a sasquatch. I'm leaving the human race for a more rational species.

The kindergarten kid in Kindergarten Cop had it right. Life used to be so simple: Joseph: [to Phoebe] Boys have a penis, and girls have a vagina.

[Cerebrum123]

I think the designers of the American school system - a bunch of liberals - were sadistic. It's one of the most horrific aspects of public school - having to take showers in groups.

I'm so glad I missed that.

[Carrikature]

Here's another tid-bit from my training. If you're a 13 year old kid, and you leave home in your boy clothes, but change to a dress and makeup at school, the school, by law, cannot tell the parents this. For example, if the transgender student is in a counselor's office, and the counselor is talking to the parent on the phone, the counselor will refer to the student as his biological gender (he, him etc) but to the student they will use she and her. It's up to the student to tell the parents. Not the school.

So if the parent says, "Johnny doesn't seem very interested in doing much. He's very depressed at home and I'm worried. Are there signs of any unusual things happening at school?"

The counselor will say, "Not that I'm aware." Even though Johnny is in the counselor's office, in a dress, putting on his/her makeup. That's how crazy this is at the moment.

I'll be the first to say I don't know how I feel about this. I think there's a really big clash in how we view children in terms of the rules meant to protect them, and I think this is an area where it shows up perfectly. If parents were perfect, it'd be a lot cleaner. Kids need someone to trust, though, right? A school counselor is far from ideal, but where are they supposed to turn? Religious systems?

ETA:
That's not to say I think it's the counselor's place to lie to the parents, with possible exceptions.

[Carrikature]

I guarantee you it's not happening in this case, or it would've been brought up by her guardians.

How would they do that? Maybe something like "please change her designation" or...

Oh, don't back down now. You know full well you implied it, or you wouldn't have brought it up.

Your track record for knowing what I think is abysmal so far. Quit while you're behind.

I guarantee you that lawsuits have been filed for lesser things.

But not on religious grounds.

Convictions are red herrings, now?

They can be when used as such, same with anything else. You can keep trying to impugn my honor all you want, but ad hominems don't mean much to me. I don't care what you think of my moral standards. You don't even know what they are.

[seer]

I'll be the first to say I don't know how I feel about this. I think there's a really big clash in how we view children in terms of the rules meant to protect them, and I think this is an area where it shows up perfectly. If parents were perfect, it'd be a lot cleaner. Kids need someone to trust, though, right? A school counselor is far from ideal, but where are they supposed to turn? Religious systems?

Sorry, no one knows or love the kids more than the parents (overall).

[Carrikature]

Sorry, no one knows or love the kids more than the parents (overall).

I wish that were true (it mostly is). I've seen some pretty crummy parents, though. Certain areas tend to be a lot more tolerant, too.

[seer]

I wish that were true (it mostly is). I've seen some pretty crummy parents, though. Certain areas tend to be a lot more tolerant, too.

Yes, it mostly is - I certainly would not generally trust school officials more. And tolerance is relative - there are some behaviors in our kids that we should not be tolerant of.

[Carrikature]

Yes, it mostly is - I certainly would not generally trust school officials more. And tolerance is relative - there are some behaviors in our kids that we should not be tolerant of.

I haven't suggested otherwise, though. I've asked where kids in a situation where they don't feel safe/comfortable around their parents for whatever reason (real or imagined) are supposed to go. I don't think the answer is school officials anymore than you do, but kids are going to go where they feel safe. If it's the counselor, if it's a random guy on the street (hope not!)...

This is a serious concern, and it's not limited to LGBT or fringe anything. It's pretty useless to insist that the parents mostly are good when the exceptions are what I'm talking about or when we know teenagers don't always recognize the reality.

[Catholicity]

I'll be the first to say I don't know how I feel about this. I think there's a really big clash in how we view children in terms of the rules meant to protect them, and I think this is an area where it shows up perfectly. If parents were perfect, it'd be a lot cleaner. Kids need someone to trust, though, right? A school counselor is far from ideal, but where are they supposed to turn? Religious systems?

ETA:
That's not to say I think it's the counselor's place to lie to the parents, with possible exceptions.

Counselor's should never lie, but they can withhold information as needed to keep a child safe. They are there to keep a person's trust and to be a sounding board. In the example that Papa Zoom provided rather than the counselor saying "not that I am aware" the counselor may say: "Try to keep an open mind as to the child's wants as he/she explores his/her identity." or "So and so really needs to know he/she is accepted for who he/she is right now." While that does not reveal a secret, it may clue the parents in that the child is hurt or has an unspoken need and can use extra loving.

[Carrikature]

Counselor's should never lie, but they can withhold information as needed to keep a child safe. They are there to keep a person's trust and to be a sounding board. In the example that Papa Zoom provided rather than the counselor saying "not that I am aware" the counselor may say: "Try to keep an open mind as to the child's wants as he/she explores his/her identity." or "So and so really needs to know he/she is accepted for who he/she is right now." While that does not reveal a secret, it may clue the parents in that the child is hurt or has an unspoken need and can use extra loving.

Well put.

[Sparko]

I don't think people who just cross-dress should even be called "transgender" - I think transgender should be used for those people who have genetic defects (hermaphrodites, etc) or who are actually undergoing or have underwent surgery to change sexes. None of that applies to a 2nd grader, who has not even entered puberty. her parents are just cross-dressing the child and trying to force society to accept their decision on what "gender" the child is. If the school does stick her in with the boys, she will just end up traumatized as the other boys find out she is really a girl and start to make fun of her.

[seer]

I haven't suggested otherwise, though. I've asked where kids in a situation where they don't feel safe/comfortable around their parents for whatever reason (real or imagined) are supposed to go. I don't think the answer is school officials anymore than you do, but kids are going to go where they feel safe. If it's the counselor, if it's a random guy on the street (hope not!)...

This is a serious concern, and it's not limited to LGBT or fringe anything. It's pretty useless to insist that the parents mostly are good when the exceptions are what I'm talking about or when we know teenagers don't always recognize the reality.

Carrikature, I really don't buy much of this. Human beings have generally been able to raise fairly well adjusted kids without all this navel gazing. Kids need to know that they are loved, not necessarily that their parents agree with everything they do. We are not their best friends - we are their parents.