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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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Celebrating Christmas

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  • Originally posted by apostoli View Post
    Actually, if you pay attention, Elam points to whole chapters of scripture and not particular verses, albeit on occasion he highlights a range of verses to be examined. He and I am of the same basic fraternity and we don't always agree, but the Cow Proder is out of order at this time...
    The problems is the verses elam quotes seem to have little if any relationship to what he seems to think they are supporting. So some commentary is very much in order.
    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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    • Originally posted by elam View Post
      Very interesting. You are afraid to be confronted by explicit scripture.
      You are certainly entitled to be wrong. You seem to excel at it.

      Of course, I accept that you would reject any statement I make, so I will continue to deal with you as Jesus would. He was very fond of quoting scripture, which irritated his opponents.
      What really irritates me is when somebody misuses scripture, then boasts about it.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        Paul. Long time no see!

        Pointing to verses can be helpful, but an explanation of why one thinks the verses make one's point tends to be much more helpful.
        EGGzackly.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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        • Where in the Bible does it tell us on what day Jesus was born?
          BU

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          • Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
            Where in the Bible does it tell us on what day Jesus was born?
            BU
            Only in handwritten notes.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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            • Thus not in the Text of Scripture?!
              BU

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              • Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
                Where in the Bible does it tell us on what day Jesus was born?
                BU
                It doesn't because it isn't necessary. There are some environmental clues, and some historical ones that narrow it down to either a Spring or Fall time frame, but other than that, we just picked a day and stuck with it.
                That's what
                - She

                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                - Stephen R. Donaldson

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
                  Where in the Bible does it tell us on what day Jesus was born?
                  BU
                  It doesn't, which is why different churches celebrate it on different days. December 25th is the most popular, and January 9th is in use by Eastern Orthodox I believe.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                    It doesn't, which is why different churches celebrate it on different days. December 25th is the most popular, and January 9th is in use by Eastern Orthodox I believe.
                    And IIRC that is a result of switching from the Julian calendar to the Gregorian one.

                    And the selecting of December 25th has nothing to do with co-opting a pagan holiday

                    It seems more likely that the dating was influenced by the Jewish concept that great figures lived an exact number of years (dying on the day that they were conceived). Christians at least since the second century held that Jesus was conceived on March 25 (see Irenaeus' Adversus Haereses for instance) and hence born on December 25 based upon his having died on March 25 -- which was calculated to have coincided with 14 Nisan.

                    This also demonstrates that Christians were celebrating Christ's birthday on December 25 before the festival for Sol Invictus (Dies Natalis Solis Invicti) on Dec. 25 was only established c. 245 AD meaning that contrary to popular belief it appears that festival was actually later syncretized with Christmas rather than the other way around.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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                    • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                      It doesn't, which is why different churches celebrate it on different days. December 25th is the most popular, and January 9th is in use by Eastern Orthodox I believe.
                      Currently, those on the Old Calendar celebrate Christmas on January 7th (Dec. 25th on the Julian Calendar); it won't be until 2200 that they celebrate it on January 9th (after two more instances where the Julian calendar has a leap year but the Gregorian calendar does not).

                      The West seems to have started out celebrating Christmas on Dec. 25, whereas the East first celebrated Christmas along with the Baptism of Jesus on Theophany (Jan. 6). About the 4th century, the Western practice spread East, and the West began to celebrate Epiphany (the visit of the Magi to the infant Jesus) on the 6th.
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                      sigpic
                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                      • So if it not in scripture why do it as its not supported by The Bible?
                        Its a Man made tradition not God made, so to speak.
                        BU

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                        • Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
                          So if it not in scripture why do it as its not supported by The Bible?
                          Its a Man made tradition not God made, so to speak.
                          BU
                          Who cares? Man-made doesn't automatically mean it's wrong or sinful.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
                            So if it not in scripture why do it as its not supported by The Bible?
                            Its a Man made tradition not God made, so to speak.
                            BU
                            God sent the angels to declare Jesus' birth, and the Magi went to give Jesus gifts and to worship Him.

                            Luke 2:8 And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night. 9 An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. 10 But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid. I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people. 11 Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord. 12 This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.”

                            13 Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying,

                            14 “Glory to God in the highest heaven,
                            and on earth peace to those on whom his favor rests.”
                            15 When the angels had left them and gone into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, “Let’s go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has told us about.”

                            Matthew 2: 9 After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen when it rose went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. 10 When they saw the star, they were overjoyed. 11 On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh.

                            I think that one of God's greatest acts in history deserves to be celebrated, even if we don't know the exact date.

                            Edit: Also, what Chrawnus said.

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                            • Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
                              So if it not in scripture why do it as its not supported by The Bible?
                              Its a Man made tradition not God made, so to speak.
                              BU
                              So is using a computer.
                              That's what
                              - She

                              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                              - Stephen R. Donaldson

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                              • Wherein does The Bible say that for Jesus followers??
                                BU

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