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Celebrating Christmas

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  • #16
    I'd like to know where in Scripture is the rule that only things mentioned in Scripture are permissible for worship.

    (This seems like a Stone-Campbellite position.)
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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    • #17
      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
      I'd like to know where in Scripture is the rule that only things mentioned in Scripture are permissible for worship.

      (This seems like a Stone-Campbellite position.)
      David 25:15b






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      • #18
        Originally posted by Jaxb View Post
        Many Christians believe that the only elements that should be included in the worship of God are the elements that are explicitly commanded by the Bible. According to the Bible, celebrating Christmas is not one of the elements included in the worship of God. Worshiping God should not include the celebration of Christmas. How would you respond to this?
        It seems you are asking whether or not Christmas type of traditions should be included along with baptism and the Lord's Supper.

        To that I would say that inside of a Church there shouldn't be a Christmas tree, etc. Only because the tree and other things that often go along with celebrating Christ's birth do have their origins in pagan traditions surrounding the Winter solstice. Of course many church leaders are ignorant of this and thus bring these pagan traditions into the house of public worship. How God feels about it, I don't know.

        We have a tree in our house. My wife likes having one. It does look nice. We enjoy it thru the lens of our Christian world-view.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by GoBahnsen View Post
          It seems you are asking whether or not Christmas type of traditions should be included along with baptism and the Lord's Supper.

          To that I would say that inside of a Church there shouldn't be a Christmas tree, etc. Only because the tree and other things that often go along with celebrating Christ's birth do have their origins in pagan traditions surrounding the Winter solstice. Of course many church leaders are ignorant of this and thus bring these pagan traditions into the house of public worship. How God feels about it, I don't know.

          We have a tree in our house. My wife likes having one. It does look nice. We enjoy it thru the lens of our Christian world-view.
          Can you actually give examples of this instead of asserting it?

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          • #20
            A lot of what is part of modern culture has come to us from previous cultures. The fact that we may use things from some other age does not carry any necessary spiritual baggage.
            Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
              Can you actually give examples of this instead of asserting it?
              Examples of what? Not sure what you are after. Examples of churches having Christmas trees in their sanctuaries? Or do you mean documenting the tree as being a part of pagan tradition?

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              • #22
                GB. Long time no see!
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  GB. Long time no see!
                  Yeah huh?

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by GoBahnsen View Post
                    Examples of what? Not sure what you are after. Examples of churches having Christmas trees in their sanctuaries? Or do you mean documenting the tree as being a part of pagan tradition?
                    You said the Christmas tree, and other things have their roots in pagan rituals, which is what I wanted examples of. Every example I've researched turned out to be false so far.

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                    • #25
                      Our "modern" Christmas tree has often been attributed to Martin Luther. It is said he was out walking one night and saw the stars shining through the branches of an evergreen, and brought one home and loaded it up with candles.

                      Not so much pagan as "Ooh! Pretty!"


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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                        Our "modern" Christmas tree has often been attributed to Martin Luther. It is said he was out walking one night and saw the stars shining through the branches of an evergreen, and brought one home and loaded it up with candles.

                        Not so much pagan as "Ooh! Pretty!"
                        I've heard a different version. One was that there were some pagans worshiping a tree, and a certain Saint went and cut it down, and placed an evergreen in it's place. He did this due to it pointing to God, and even the Trinity due to it's shape(being basically a triangle).

                        I'll have to look it up.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                          You said the Christmas tree, and other things have their roots in pagan rituals, which is what I wanted examples of. Every example I've researched turned out to be false so far.
                          Stuff like the quote below. From my scant knowledge of the subject, the debate of Christmas trees and Christianity has been a lively one over church history, especially with the Puritans.

                          But no surprise that we wouldn't care much about it in a day and age where Homosexuals are in the pulpit. What's a Christmas tree? And BTW, I love homosexuals. We have two in our small Presbyterian church. We love them, but they are not allowed at the Lord's table until they repent.

                          Anyway, I'm not gonna get worked up over the topic. If our church suddenly brought in a tree, I'd keep my mouth shut. I realize that people view them differently. Like I said, we have one in our living room and a lot of the ornaments are about Jesus.

                          "In Europe, Pagans in the past did not cut down whole evergreen trees, bring them into their homes and decorate them. That would have been far too destructive of nature. But during the Roman celebration of the feast of Saturnalia, Pagans did decorate their houses with clippings of evergreen shrubs. They also decorated living trees with bits of metal and replicas of their God, Bacchus.

                          Tertullian (circa 160 - 230), an early Christian leader and a prolific writer, complained that too many fellow-Christians had copied the Pagan practice of adorning their houses with lamps and with wreathes of laurel at Christmas time. 8,9,10,11"

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                            Our "modern" Christmas tree has often been attributed to Martin Luther. It is said he was out walking one night and saw the stars shining through the branches of an evergreen, and brought one home and loaded it up with candles.

                            Not so much pagan as "Ooh! Pretty!"
                            Yeah, some attribute the tree to Germany a few hundred years ago. Again, I'm like fine, go get a Christmas tree, but because of Church history, do we really need one inside the local church?

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by GoBahnsen View Post
                              Yeah, some attribute the tree to Germany a few hundred years ago. Again, I'm like fine, go get a Christmas tree, but because of Church history, do we really need one inside the local church?
                              I have one in my local church............right in my living room!



                              Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by GoBahnsen View Post
                                Stuff like the quote below. From my scant knowledge of the subject, the debate of Christmas trees and Christianity has been a lively one over church history, especially with the Puritans.

                                But no surprise that we wouldn't care much about it in a day and age where Homosexuals are in the pulpit. What's a Christmas tree? And BTW, I love homosexuals. We have two in our small Presbyterian church. We love them, but they are not allowed at the Lord's table until they repent.

                                Anyway, I'm not gonna get worked up over the topic. If our church suddenly brought in a tree, I'd keep my mouth shut. I realize that people view them differently. Like I said, we have one in our living room and a lot of the ornaments are about Jesus.
                                I'm not asking for anything more than a reference for your claims. Nothing to get worked up over.

                                Oh, and really? Attempted well poisoning already?

                                "In Europe, Pagans in the past did not cut down whole evergreen trees, bring them into their homes and decorate them. That would have been far too destructive of nature. But during the Roman celebration of the feast of Saturnalia, Pagans did decorate their houses with clippings of evergreen shrubs. They also decorated living trees with bits of metal and replicas of their God, Bacchus.

                                Tertullian (circa 160 - 230), an early Christian leader and a prolific writer, complained that too many fellow-Christians had copied the Pagan practice of adorning their houses with lamps and with wreathes of laurel at Christmas time. 8,9,10,11"
                                I find the quote repeated in a lot of places, and none of them give reliable sources so far except for the on concerning Tertullian. Tertullian's argument is rather bad actually. Apparently, in his mind, if you decorate an entrance, you are therefore worshiping the "god/demon of entrances".

                                His argument backfires too, because God ordered the Israelites to make decorations for the Tabernacle at various places. If each has a demon associated with it, then God Himself ordered the Israelites to "worship" said demons with the "tokens" associated with each.

                                Go to Chapter 15 of On Idolatry to see his thoughts about decorations. It just really doesn't make any sense.

                                All of the sites that pop up use the argument that Jeremiah spoke against decorating trees.
                                I mean, seriously? The verse they use is clearly about idols being worshiped, not ordinary decorations.

                                I highly recommend Christmas is Pagan and Other Myths.

                                The series isn't finished yet, but the video form starts here. It's a parody of "The Grinch Who Stole Christmas". The book is much more in depth though, so is better for checking things out. The two videos so far give a decent overview though.

                                Originally posted by GoBahnsen View Post
                                Yeah, some attribute the tree to Germany a few hundred years ago. Again, I'm like fine, go get a Christmas tree, but because of Church history, do we really need one inside the local church?
                                Well, since that history doesn't seem to be what you think it is, I see no reason to object to a Christmas tree.

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