Welfare almost never "makes people lazy"

[Carrikature]

Ah, "out of context" extracts which you are duped into believing is representative of the overall tone.

I tired of Fox News long before I saw an episode of The Daily Show. Representations of it aren't all that far off, far too often.

[klaus54]

I tired of Fox News long before I saw an episode of The Daily Show. Representations of it aren't all that far off, far too often.

So what "unbiased" news source do you, oh fount of wisdom and truth, prefer?

[Cow Poke]

I tired of Fox News long before I saw an episode of The Daily Show. Representations of it aren't all that far off, far too often.

Yes, ONLY trust the anchors on the mainstream media channels. The honest, reputable, REAL news reporters.

oops.jpg

[Joel]

You pointed out that in the natural order (which God created and acts in, according to theists) people sometimes don't get enough food and starve to death.

Oh, I now see where you were going with that. Because this is a derail, I will refrain from responding to it.

I'm essentially compiling my own mental list of the various factors that lead Americans to hold the views they do. I have been sufficiently convinced that widespread racism is definitely a significant factor in America today at influencing many people's views.

Your suggestion that I'm using it as an "explanation of the gaps" that I fall back on when I can't think of other reasons is just plain wrong. I can think of lots of other reasons, and it's one of many.

Yes. Those are other factors that are in play. As I said: Lots of reasons.

Usually a little of each. Lots of factors.

But "they actually find convincing the arguments that they actually give" isn't one of them? So you have to come up with ad hominem explanations?

At any rate, such explanations don't do anything to refute the arguments.

[Carrikature]

So what "unbiased" news source do you, oh fount of wisdom and truth, prefer?

I don't pretend there is such a thing.

[Joel]

Really now. How do you help Sparko? Do you house and feed the homeless. We are not talking about helping out the down and out friend next door with a few bucks, admirable though that may be, we are talking about homeless, starving, and working poor families and children all across the country. How do you insure that they be helped without the support of government social policy? You don't, thats how. You know as well as I do that without government involvment those people are going to suffer their circumstances because the task of doing right by them is an overwhelming one for individual citizens to tackle individually. You turn a blind eye to this fact when you argue against government involvement and that is why I call your tact a cop out. If you truly cared, and have in mind the suffering of people in general then you would support a system that takes their plight into consideration rather than making excuses about the government stealing your hard earned money. Thats what government is all about, we pool together our resources, we pay our dues, our taxes, to make better the lives of all.

Your argument here is that Sparko (and all others people, presumably) has the moral imperative to help not just all the people Sparko is capable of helping, but to help everyone in the world who is in need. That seems like a dubious premise. Though it perhaps does shed some light on how some people might be thinking along the lines of: I must help everyone, but I don't have the resources to help everyone, so it must be okay for me to steal resources from others to fulfill my moral duty.

But then you seem to assume that it is impossible for everyone in need to be helped by citizens acting individually. That seems obviously false. Surely it is logically possible that if enough individuals help all the people they reasonably can, that everyone in need gets helped.

But assuming for the sake of argument that people must act together in a coordinated way, then you add yet another assumption: that that is impossible apart from government coercion. This assumption too seems obviously false. Surely it is logically possible for people to voluntarily work together in a coordinated way. Efficient large-scale voluntary charities exist. Consider also that even the state consists only of individuals interacting. "The government" is not a magic thing that gives those individuals super powers. If it is possible to "pool together our resources...to make better the lives of all," then it is possible to do so apart from the state.

Nor can it even be assumed that doing it through the state is the best or even a good way to do it. I don't think anyone has been able to prove that state welfare always reduces rather than increases the problem of poverty, let alone prove that there does not exist more-effective ways to decrease poverty.

Another claim you make regards the essence of government: "Thats what government is all about, we pool together our resources...to make better the lives of all." Because that can be done via any number of voluntary organizations, it seems clear that that is not the defining characteristic of government. (And if it really makes better the lives of all involved, then it can be done voluntarily--people would gladly contribute, if for no other reason than to better their own life.) Rather, the distinguishing thing is that the voluntary organization is the voluntary means, while the government is the coercive means. The essence of government involves the use of force. (And historically that generally meant force used against overt encroachment on person or property.)

So that's at least 5 dubious premises in your argument there.

[Carrikature]

Yes, ONLY trust the anchors on the mainstream media channels. The honest, reputable, REAL news reporters.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]11642[/ATTACH]

One thing I find truly baffling is people denigrating mainstream media yet somehow acting as if Fox doesn't count.

[Zymologist]

One thing I find truly baffling is people denigrating mainstream media yet somehow acting as if Fox doesn't count.

I'm happy to just agree that all the media sucks. I think it was Mark Twain who said, "If you don't read the newspaper, you're uninformed. If you read the newspaper, you're mis-informed."

[lilpixieofterror]

fallacy of relative privation

I know, because I have to use it all the time on the people I supervise.

In other words, you can't refute it and hoping you can distract from it. We American's are some of the most well off people in the world, but we still complain because we are not well off enough. Take a trip to the third world or even down to Mexico sometime JR if you ever want to see what poverty really looks like.

[klaus54]

I don't pretend there is such a thing.

Well, that's helpful.

[klaus54]

In other words, you can't refute it and hoping you can distract from it. We American's are some of the most well off people in the world, but we still complain because we are not well off enough. Take a trip to the third world or even down to Mexico sometime JR if you ever want to see what poverty really looks like.

Don't bother JR, he's due back at the collective to harvest cabbages and dig beets...

[Cow Poke]

One thing I find truly baffling is people denigrating mainstream media yet somehow acting as if Fox doesn't count.

It's ALL about ratings, C - I don't pretend otherwise. MSM appeals to the liberals, Fox News to the conservatives, but it's all about ratings. I just find it amusing that the (cough, sputter) "REAL" journalists are guilty, in some cases, of gross negligence that wouldn't even be caught if there wasn't an opposing ideology.

[Cow Poke]

I don't pretend there is such a thing.

Me, too, neither.

[jordanriver]

Don't bother JR, he's due back at the collective to harvest cabbages and dig beets...

well
i could go for some borscht and boiled cabbage with sour cream

and songs

[lilpixieofterror]

Don't bother JR, he's due back at the collective to harvest cabbages and dig beets...

Some people just need perspectives of actual reality. Even the poorest American, is richer than 90% of the world's population. If anything, the biggest advantage most of us have is being born in rich, western countries, where 'poverty' isn't having the latest gadget.