Where did I say God was not eternal?
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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Is Sola Scritura from Scripture?
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Originally posted by Adam View PostMossy says so, because I believe that current evil beings, demons and such derive from an original Evil, uncreated by our God, but whom God has foreborn [sic] obliteration, out of His great mercy. I consider myself fully orthodox with the unusual plus of a theodicy that solves the Problem of Evil.
(The Bible nowhere states that God created Satan or even the angels.)
(Regarding Martin Luther, I should have added that he translated all 66 books of the Bible in spite of his reservations about Esther, James, and perhaps others.)For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>
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Originally posted by The Remonstrant View Post37818:
Regarding the question of whether the concept of sola scriptura may be derived from Scripture, I will simply say this: if one should become convinced of the falsity of sola scriptura, he/she will likely find him-/herself drawn towards Eastern Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism (assuming he or she remains a believer).Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by The Remonstrant View Post.... If [I] am understanding you correctly, you believe that there are some beings (or things) that were not created by God. If so, this belief alone would place you outside the realm of ‘orthodoxy’, I’m afraid....
The remaining Evil-ness in this universe may have arisen independently of God, in some inter-related "soup" before God distanced Himself from the Other, or as "stuff" "created" by God before God set it aside as something not good. But I do believe firmly that our God we worship did not wantonly create Evil as such knowing it would be irremediably evil forever. That last "out" may be a good fit with Origen's belief that eventually even Satan will be saved.
So one way or another, I guess you can fairly say that my orthodoxy is at least as questionable as Origen's. I have been saying for decades (including when I was Roman Catholic) that I am an Origenist. (Origen was the first great Christian theologian, only eclipsed around 400 A. D. by Augustine of Hippo.)Last edited by Adam; 12-19-2015, 11:38 AM.Near the Peoples' Republic of Davis, south of the State of Jefferson (Suspended between Left and Right)
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Originally posted by Adam View PostNot necessarily.
The remaining Evil-ness in this universe may have arisen independently of God, in some inter-related "soup" before God distanced Himself from the Other, or as "stuff" "created" by God before God set it aside as something not good. But I do believe firmly that our God we worship did not wantonly create Evil as such knowing it would be irremediably evil forever. That last "out" may be a good fit with Origen's belief that eventually even Satan will be saved.
So one way or another, I guess you can fairly say that my orthodoxy is at least as questionable as Origen's. I have been saying for decades (including when I was Roman Catholic) that I am an Origenist. (Origen was the first great Christian theologian, only eclipsed around 400 A. D. by Augustine of Hippo.)βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostI'm pretty sure postulating anything other than God as being eternal puts you squarely outside orthodoxy, no matter what your own opinion on the matter might be.
Concerning his take on evil, I think the Jewish sage Maimonides take on the subject might be helpful (it is to me at any rate),
The Too-Long-Didn't-Read synopsis is that God doesn't create evil, evil is a byproduct of negation in God's good universe. Negations aren't created, as such, since they're simply the lack of a created property.
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Thanks, Adrift.
I clearly disagree with Maimonides.
I clearly disagree with Robrecht's supposition that I take the opposite position from Origen. Over my life I have preferred the "orthodox Origenist" position that Satan would ultimately be saved, particularly in synch with Benedict XVI's and Hans Urs von Balthasar's universalistic proclivities. However, since that doctrine does not explain the origin of the Problem of Evil, I hold open the possibility that God kind of evolved in tandem with forces now still opposed to God that God had little or nothing to do with creating or forming, but that God battled (as in Milton's myth of the Battle in Heaven) "them" and (thankfully) won.
I don't care to take Paul literarally, though as myself a charismatic I love his pastoral theology. What St. Paul says is good, but not necessarily the final ontological word.Near the Peoples' Republic of Davis, south of the State of Jefferson (Suspended between Left and Right)
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Originally posted by Adam View PostThanks, Adrift.
I clearly disagree with Maimonides.
I clearly disagree with Robrecht's supposition that I take the opposite position from Origen. Over my life I have preferred the "orthodox Origenist" position that Satan would ultimately be saved, particularly in synch with Benedict XVI's and Hans Urs von Balthasar's universalistic proclivities. However, since that doctrine does not explain the origin of the Problem of Evil, I hold open the possibility that God kind of evolved in tandem with forces now still opposed to God that God had little or nothing to do with creating or forming, but that God battled (as in Milton's myth of the Battle in Heaven) "them" and (thankfully) won.
I don't care to take Paul literarally, though as myself a charismatic I love his pastoral theology. What St. Paul says is good, but not necessarily the final ontological word.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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"obliteration" as in " but whom God has foreborne obliteration, out of His great mercy", where I said God has NOT obliterated? That this implies God just delays in teasing or torturing along the way to annihilation? That's not what I said. Not that I deny God the right to obliterate whomever He will.
So if I ignored you it was just to spare you embarrassment regarding your error.
It's rather discouraging that so many here "amened" your error. Why do people hate me so much? (I'm not saying that YOU do, Robrecht.) I'm just defending God as all Good.Last edited by Adam; 12-19-2015, 11:31 PM.Near the Peoples' Republic of Davis, south of the State of Jefferson (Suspended between Left and Right)
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Originally posted by Adam View Post"obliteration" as in " but whom God has foreborne obliteration, out of His great mercy", where I said God has NOT obliterated? That this implies God just delays in teasing or torturing along the way to annihilation? That's not what I said. Not that I deny God the right to obliterate whomever He will.
So if I ignored you it was just to spare you embarrassment regarding your error.
It's rather discouraging that so many here "amened" your error. Why do people hate me so much? (I'm not saying that YOU do, Robrecht.) I'm just defending God as all Good.
Next question: I've heard some say that Origen did not defend creatio ex nihilo. Is that also your opinion of Origen? Is that also your own view? Do you also not believe in creatio ex nihilo? It sounds as if you do not, but I just want to make sure i understand your position. My own understanding, and again I am no expert on Origen's views, is that Origen did indeed defend creatio ex nihilo.
By the way, I certainly do not hate you, and I am glad that you do not think that I do. I can't speak for others here, but do you really think they hate you? Or are you just joking about that?Last edited by robrecht; 12-20-2015, 04:28 AM.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by Adam View PostIt's rather discouraging that so many here "amened" your error. Why do people hate me so much? (I'm not saying that YOU do, Robrecht.) I'm just defending God as all Good.
I amened robrecht's post because his point about your dualistic beliefs are not what most Christians would consider orthodox.
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostSo, again, just so that I might better understand your views, you do not think that God will obliterate or destroy Satan but rather that Satan will eventually be saved--is that right?
Next question: I've heard some say that Origen did not defend creatio ex nihilo. Is that also your opinion of Origen? Is that also your own view? Do you also not believe in creatio ex nihilo?
I can't speak for others here, but do you really think they hate you? Or are you just joking about that?Near the Peoples' Republic of Davis, south of the State of Jefferson (Suspended between Left and Right)
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostI amened robrecht's post because his point about your dualistic beliefs are not what most Christians would consider orthodox.Near the Peoples' Republic of Davis, south of the State of Jefferson (Suspended between Left and Right)
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