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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

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Conditional or Unconditional Election?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by phat8594 View Post
    Of course, I'm believing its only a matter of time before you become a free will theist, RB.
    I used to be one. If it is God's will for me to become one again, I will do so.

    Comment

    • #17
      Ephesians 2 is not a treatise on how faith unto salvation is a gift from God, but how God has fulfilled His promise to bless ALL nations (corporate entities, Jew and Gentle) through his Seed.

      Gifting to be the means by which the world is blessed, not based on , conditional to merit, but because it pleased Him, just as it pleased Him to choose Israel only in the Old Covenant:

      Deuteronomy 7
      7"The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,
      Last edited by footwasher; 02-24-2014, 05:29 PM.

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      • #18
        As an Open Theist (ovt), most probably would think that I would fall into the "conditional" category. But, that would not be correct. To be accurate, I would say I believe in Corporate Election. However, to the OP, I have come to believe that the scripture actually supports both. As an ovt, I believe God has a plan, and His plan will not be thwarted...to that end, He may elect some individuals that are (crucial/necessary/essential?) to that plan...many others that hear the Gospel and respond not because of unconditional election but because they choose God. He offers it to all and expects all to respond. see Acts 17:29-30, 1Tim. 2:4-5.
        "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

        "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

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        • #19
          Originally posted by phat8594 View Post
          First off, I should point out that the words 'unconditional election' are not found in the Bible.

          That being said, from my studies of the scriptures I have seen an 'unconditional / conditional' form of election.

          Unconditional from God's point of view (nothing conditioned God to offer salvation)

          Conditional from mans point of view (man must be found in Christ, which occurs by faith)


          I believe the Calvinist is right in trying to defend the idea that God is the ulimate author of salvation, and that salvation comes by His mercy and His choice. However, I believe they go to far in asserting that salvation is also unconditional to man (man has no real choice in the matter).

          Personally I believe God chose to save all those who have faith (in Christ), and this (salvation) not of their own doing, but a free gift of God. IOW, faith doesn't earn anything, it is just the condition (of man) upon which God has set His sovereign choice.
          I to believe that God is the ultimate author of salvation, what is being discussed is the methods that God chose to effect salvation...
          Personally I believe God chose to save all those who have faith (in Christ),
          Based upon this conclusion, logic demands that we conclude salvation predicated upon/through faith; which by definition is conditional rather than unconditional... Still we can rightly conclude that God unconditionally chose faith. {Election}

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          • #20
            I'm an Arminian. I'm right. The end.
            For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

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            • #21
              The election is God's. The condition for election is set by the sanctification of the Holy Spirit. The election is not merited. (1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14.)

              ". . . according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience . . ." -- 1 Peter 1:2.
              ". . . God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14.
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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              • #22
                1 Peter 1
                1To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood:

                Chosen for a role, no mention of conditional or unconditional choosing

                2 Thessalonians 2
                13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits[b] to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


                Fulfilment of the role through sanctification by the Spirit and believing the truth, the gospel that enables sharing in Christ's glory. Again, no mention of conditional or unconditional choosing

                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                The election is God's. The condition for election is set by the sanctification of the Holy Spirit. The election is not merited. (1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14.)

                ". . . according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience . . ." -- 1 Peter 1:2.
                ". . . God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                  As an Open Theist (ovt), most probably would think that I would fall into the "conditional" category. But, that would not be correct. To be accurate, I would say I believe in Corporate Election. However, to the OP, I have come to believe that the scripture actually supports both. As an ovt, I believe God has a plan, and His plan will not be thwarted...to that end, He may elect some individuals that are (crucial/necessary/essential?) to that plan...many others that hear the Gospel and respond not because of unconditional election but because they choose God. He offers it to all and expects all to respond. see Acts 17:29-30, 1Tim. 2:4-5.
                  I believe in Corporate Election through faith...

                  Comment

                  • #24
                    Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
                    I to believe that God is the ultimate author of salvation, what is being discussed is the methods that God chose to effect salvation...

                    Based upon this conclusion, logic demands that we conclude salvation predicated upon/through faith; which by definition is conditional rather than unconditional... Still we can rightly conclude that God unconditionally chose faith. {Election}
                    Yes, that more or less seems to be what I am saying. God's choice of 'faith' is unconditional -- but faith is the 'condition' for us to be in Christ.



                    IOW, God doesn't unconditional choose who will have faith, but rather unconditionally (from His POV) those that have faith.
                    Last edited by phat8594; 02-25-2014, 12:22 PM.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                      ". . . God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14.
                      'and belief of the truth'

                      God's elects through our belief (& sanctification of the Spirit)

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                      • #26
                        Unconditional election, definitely

                        Comment

                        • #27
                          Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
                          I to believe that God is the ultimate author of salvation, what is being discussed is the methods that God chose to effect salvation...
                          Just as a matter of clarification: When you guys use the idea "God", who do you mean - the Father, Son, Holy Spirit or all three? If you attend to scripture your only answer can be the Father, who sent his Son to be the saviour of the world (nb: note A.John quoting Jesus testifies that the Son did not come as a result of his own volition)...

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by apostoli View Post
                            Just as a matter of clarification: When you guys use the idea "God", who do you mean - the Father, Son, Holy Spirit or all three? If you attend to scripture your only answer can be the Father, who sent his Son to be the saviour of the world (nb: note A.John quoting Jesus testifies that the Son did not come as a result of his own volition)...
                            God, The Father; God, The Son & God, The Holy Spirit. One God. God Is Spirit. The three persons of the trinity; God

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by apostoli View Post
                              Just as a matter of clarification: When you guys use the idea "God", who do you mean - the Father, Son, Holy Spirit or all three? If you attend to scripture your only answer can be the Father, who sent his Son to be the saviour of the world (nb: note A.John quoting Jesus testifies that the Son did not come as a result of his own volition)...
                              Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
                              God, The Father; God, The Son & God, The Holy Spirit. One God. God Is Spirit. The three persons of the trinity; God
                              Yes, well, even granting the doctrine of the trinity, the fact remains: the New Testament authors almost exclusively refer to the Father by the simple designation "God" (theos).
                              Last edited by The Remonstrant; 03-08-2014, 04:00 PM.
                              For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

                              Comment

                              • #30
                                Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
                                God, The Father; God, The Son & God, The Holy Spirit. One God. God Is Spirit. The three persons of the trinity; God
                                So you advocate Sabellianism (Oneness Pentecostalism). An idea rejected by the Trinitarian Church in the third century...

                                Either God sent himself, or God sent his only begotten Son. Your call! Also note, that according to A.John via the testimony of Christ, the Parakletos (the Holy Spirit) was absent from the affairs of men until after the resurrection...

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