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Christ the Conqueror of Hell

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  • #76
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    We are encouraged to see ourselves as "chief of all sinners" - it's part of the prayer recited before receiving communion. Those who are closest to God in this life are no exception. Because they are so close to God, they can see their own shortcomings more clearly than anyone else. St. Anthony the Great, upon meeting a simple cobbler in Alexandria, declared him to be holier than himself, because the cobbler said, "every day, I keep in mind the thought that everyone else will be saved, and I alone will remain in torment."

    That sounds really really depressing. Almost as though we ought to go through life in sack cloth and ashes. Certainly we were all sinners, we all sin, and certainly we should show a measure of humility, but it almost sounds like you're saying that the Eastern church thinks that all Christians are less than worms. We're told in scripture that we're sanctified, that we're justified, that we're joint heirs with Christ, that we're more than conquerors, and that we can call God our father. Doesn't the Eastern church teach any of that? Is there any empowerment of the believer through Christ in the Orthodox church?

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Adrift View Post
      That sounds really really depressing. Almost as though we ought to go through life in sack cloth and ashes. Certainly we were all sinners, we all sin, and certainly we should show a measure of humility, but it almost sounds like you're saying that the Eastern church thinks that all Christians are less than worms. We're told in scripture that we're sanctified, that we're justified, that we're joint heirs with Christ, that we're more than conquerors, and that we can call God our father. Doesn't the Eastern church teach any of that? Is there any empowerment of the believer through Christ in the Orthodox church?
      Sure. It's just self-reliance that is heavily discouraged. We are to look at others and see Christ in them; it is only ourselves we should be hard on. The Orthodox have many feast days as well; it's hardly all sackcloth and ashes, even for monks.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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      • #78
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        Sure. It's just self-reliance that is heavily discouraged. We are to look at others and see Christ in them; it is only ourselves we should be hard on. The Orthodox have many feast days as well; it's hardly all sackcloth and ashes, even for monks.
        Especially not for monks! At least not in the Roman Catholic tradition.
        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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        • #79
          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          They are all somewhat metaphorical, in that hell is not identified as a physical place. On the other hand, all traditions except for liberal Protestantism believe that, wherever (for lack of a better term) the spirits of the dead abide, Jesus literally went there.

          Yeah, the article is not defending the doctrine of the descent into Hades, which is presumably what Acts 2:27 was cited.

          I'm not sure what you're arguing here. I think that Deut. 32:22 is not cited for good reason:
          Source: NET study note

          Sheol refers here not to hell and hell-fire - a much later concept - but to the innermost parts of the earth, as low down as one could get. the parallel with "the foundationsof the mountains" makes this clear (cf. Ps. 9:17, 16:10,139:8; Is. 14:9,15; Amos 9:2).

          © Copyright Original Source



          Yes, it is (endnote 26).

          That would have been useful for proving that Christ descended into Hades, but that's not the intent of the article.

          In Roman Catholic tradition, Jesus only rescued from Hades the souls of the Old Testament righteous, and effectively locked the gates of Hades behind Him when He left; even those in purgatory remain there (though IIRC those in purgatory can be released through prayers/masses/? - I need a Roman Catholic to help me out here).
          The Holy Souls in Purgatory are absolutely certain of Heaven - that is why they are being purged of the last traces of sin in them: so that they will be able to endure and enjoy the Vision of God.

          It is usual to distinguish the Limbo of the Fathers, which Christ "harrowed" at His Descent into Hell, from Purgatory. As for "locking the gates" - in all the pictures I've seen, they are shown as broken. Which fits the NT emphasis on the completeness of Our Lord's victory well.
          In Eastern tradition, Jesus broke the gates of Hades, and preached to all who were present. Those who were capable of responding (variously interpreted from a minimalist position of those who led righteous lives even though they never heard the gospel to a maximalist position of everyone) had, and have, the opportunity to leave.

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