Christ the Conqueror of Hell

[One Bad Pig]

I came across this article by Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev today. It takes as its main point the interpretation of 1 Peter 3:18-21. I think it neatly encapsulates much of how East and West tend to think differently. While it mostly refers to Western Catholic tradition, Protestant (especially Reformed) teaching is much closer to Rome than Constantinople on the soteriological impact of this issue. I encourage you to read the whole article; what I could quote here doesn't capture its essence.



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[Spartacus]

if I can be permitted to engage in the customary flippancy of this forum, I am reminded of the absurd article Salon published earlier this year about Christ's descent into Hell being some sort of dirty secret: http://www.salon.com/2015/04/09/jesu...ledge_partner/

more seriously (and still without reading the whole article in the link), the bit about Western legalism and predestination intrigues me, because I've heard more than once that western Christianity was influenced in certain ways by Roman legal thought and argumentation-- not in that doctrines themselves stemmed from it, but the metaphors and explanations for ideas are connected to the Roman legal system. In a course I took on early Christian art, I remember seeing some mosaics in which the saints were depicted or otherwise understood as being something like a legal advocate or witness in God's court. This was all a few years ago, and it's still tangential to your point, but what I'd like to get at is that a legal understanding is a bare-bones understanding, and legally-attuned minds would focus a bit more on what Christ's descent to the dead accomplished from a more pragmatic standpoint-- that is, in the end, it was a narrow category that was brought into the fullness of salvation, and the ways of thinking connected with Roman law would lead the West to focus on that element rather than anything else.

So what the above means is that I don't disagree with that passage from the article, and I can understand why he skims over it, but I'm trying to explore a point that intrigues me.

[theophilus]

In his story of Lazarus and the rich man, in Luke 16:19-31, Jesus described the conditions that existed in Hades before his death and resurrection. Both Lazarus and the rich man ended up in Hades but were is different parts. This shows that the separation of the righteous and the wicked had already taken place and it is the righteous who were taken to Heaven after the death of Christ. If you think this was just a parable, I suggest that you read this:

https://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/20...-actual-event/

[37818]

One Bad Pig gave me permission to post the following here. [Thank You OBP!]

The article presents the views blurred. How do they differ? literal versus metaphorical? We know Jesus descended into Hades (the ref Acts 2:27 is not cited) in that His Soul did not remain there. Augustine rejects Abraham's bosom being in Hades. Where Jesus taught Abraham was there (Luke 16:23) and how Abraham said otherwise (Luke 16:29, 31 Moses: Deuteronomy 32:22 and the prophets: one being David: Psalm 86:13). Virtually no one [commentaries etc] cites Deuteronomy 32:22 two compartments of Sheol/Hades is being presented. Also 1 Peter 4:6 is not cited and Ephesians 4:8-10 is not cited.

My comments aside: If you had to list the views presented in the article, how would you list them and categorize them. How are they the same and how are they different?

[Obsidian]

I think it's dubious to argue that Lazarus was in hell, anyway. It makes more sense to say that he was in heaven. He was in the same place as Abraham. The people in hell are always described as being dead. In Matthew 22:32, Jesus said that Abraham was alive.

[Cow Poke]

I think it's dubious to argue that Lazarus was in hell, anyway. It makes more sense to say that he was in heaven. He was in the same place as Abraham. The people in hell are always described as being dead. In Matthew 22:32, Jesus said that Abraham was alive.

He was in "the place of departed spirits".

[37818]

Until Jesus ascended into heaven ([Luke 23:43; Acts 2:27;] Acts 1:9-11; Ephesians 4:8-10) the upper compartment of Hades/Sheol was Paradise. Abraham speaks of Moses and the prophets (Luke 16:29, 31; - Deuteronomy 32:22; Psalm 86:13).

[Obsidian]

[37818]

Explain.

First off, a literal reading is required to get to any metaphor or figurative language. If the latter is meant. Support it.

What was Abraham (Luke 16:29, 31) referring to? Give the relevant passages in the writings of Moses and any of the prophets.

The rich man was in Hades below where Abraham was. ". . . he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and sees Abraham afar off . . . ."

Before Jesus died physically he said to one, "today you shall be with Me in paradise."
Peter cites the Psalm of David regarding Christ's resurrection, ". . . you will not leave my soul in Hades[Sheol] . . . ."
It is therefore my understanding Paradise was the upper compartment of Sheol.

[Obsidian]

So you think David was in hell before he wrote that psalm, but then got physically resurrected?

I think the comment to the thief on the cross was probably meant to say, "You will be with me in paradise, and I am telling you this today." The thief did not ask for paradise; he simply asked to be remembered. Jesus was telling him that he wouldn't need to be remembered and contemplated later, because the decision was already made, "today."

Another, alternative theory I've heard is that Jesus was simply referring to his deity and hence his "omnipresence." Even though Jesus was in hell, the thief would be with God in paradise.

I think the idea that Jesus himself was in paradise while atoning for the sins of the whole world is a little ridiculous.

[37818]

So you think David was in hell before he wrote that psalm, but then got physically resurrected?

As I said, David was one of the prophets Abraham was referring to. And you did not answer my question as to what Moses and the prophets wrote regarding that place of torment (Luke 16:29, 31).

[Obsidian]

It doesn't even say that that Moses wrote about the place of torment. But you already quoted a section from Moses where he mentions hell. So there you go.

[37818]

It doesn't even say that that Moses wrote about the place of torment. But you already quoted a section from Moses where he mentions hell. So there you go.

Abraham argued they have Moses and the prophets. If it is not written, then how? And you had argued the meaning was not to be understood literally. And I had asked you to explain.

[Obsidian]

The psalmist is either saying that his life was hellish and that God healed him, or he is saying that he was once unsaved and destined for hell and God redeemed him. He is absolutely not saying that he literally died and went to hell.

Really, this is not hard.

[37818]

The psalmist is either saying that his life was hellish and that God healed him, or he is saying that he was once unsaved and destined for hell and God redeemed him. He is absolutely not saying that he literally died and went to hell.

Really, this is not hard.

You were saying regarding what God told Moses, Deuteronomy 32:22 was not literal.