Announcement

Collapse

Ecclesiology 201 Guidelines

Discussion on matters of general mainstream Christian churches. What are the differences between Catholics and protestants? How has the charismatic movement affected the church? Are Southern baptists different from fundamentalist baptists? It is also for discussions about the nature of the church.

This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and theists. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions. Additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Christ the Conqueror of Hell

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    I didn't say that. It just doesn't support your belief that the "upper hell" is a nice place.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by theophilus View Post
      In his story of Lazarus and the rich man, in Luke 16:19-31, Jesus described the conditions that existed in Hades before his death and resurrection. Both Lazarus and the rich man ended up in Hades but were is different parts. This shows that the separation of the righteous and the wicked had already taken place and it is the righteous who were taken to Heaven after the death of Christ. If you think this was just a parable, I suggest that you read this:

      https://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/20...-actual-event/
      Noted, but I'm not convinced. Beggars being (mostly) ignored at the gates of rich men is enough of a commonplace that there would need to be rather more descriptors than a single name to make it more than a parable IMO. And that there will be a White Throne judgment at the end of time when people undergo a final separation suggests that whatever separation there was prior to that is not absolute.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
        I didn't say that. It just doesn't support your belief that the "upper hell" is a nice place.
        That is how you understand it. In my understanding it does.
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          Noted, but I'm not convinced. Beggars being (mostly) ignored at the gates of rich men is enough of a commonplace that there would need to be rather more descriptors than a single name to make it more than a parable IMO. And that there will be a White Throne judgment at the end of time when people undergo a final separation suggests that whatever separation there was prior to that is not absolute.
          Lazarus was actually called a poor man. And being sick was dropped off at that rich man's porch.
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
            One Bad Pig gave me permission to post the following here. [Thank You OBP!]

            The article presents the views blurred. How do they differ? literal versus metaphorical?
            They are all somewhat metaphorical, in that hell is not identified as a physical place. On the other hand, all traditions except for liberal Protestantism believe that, wherever (for lack of a better term) the spirits of the dead abide, Jesus literally went there.
            We know Jesus descended into Hades (the ref Acts 2:27 is not cited) in that His Soul did not remain there.
            Yeah, the article is not defending the doctrine of the descent into Hades, which is presumably what Acts 2:27 was cited.
            Augustine rejects Abraham's bosom being in Hades. Where Jesus taught Abraham was there (Luke 16:23) and how Abraham said otherwise (Luke 16:29, 31 Moses: Deuteronomy 32:22 and the prophets: one being David: Psalm 86:13). Virtually no one [commentaries etc] cites Deuteronomy 32:22 two compartments of Sheol/Hades is being presented.
            I'm not sure what you're arguing here. I think that Deut. 32:22 is not cited for good reason:
            Source: NET study note

            Sheol refers here not to hell and hell-fire - a much later concept - but to the innermost parts of the earth, as low down as one could get. the parallel with "the foundationsof the mountains" makes this clear (cf. Ps. 9:17, 16:10,139:8; Is. 14:9,15; Amos 9:2).

            © Copyright Original Source


            Also 1 Peter 4:6 is not cited
            Yes, it is (endnote 26).
            and Ephesians 4:8-10 is not cited.
            That would have been useful for proving that Christ descended into Hades, but that's not the intent of the article.
            My comments aside: If you had to list the views presented in the article, how would you list them and categorize them. How are they the same and how are they different?
            In Roman Catholic tradition, Jesus only rescued from Hades the souls of the Old Testament righteous, and effectively locked the gates of Hades behind Him when He left; even those in purgatory remain there (though IIRC those in purgatory can be released through prayers/masses/? - I need a Roman Catholic to help me out here).

            In Eastern tradition, Jesus broke the gates of Hades, and preached to all who were present. Those who were capable of responding (variously interpreted from a minimalist position of those who led righteous lives even though they never heard the gospel to a maximalist position of everyone) had, and have, the opportunity to leave.
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              Lazarus was actually called a poor man. And being sick was dropped off at that rich man's porch.
              Where are you getting this?
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

              Comment


              • #22
                OBP,

                Thank you for your previous comments and corrections regarding notes I missed in the article.

                I do not agree with all of the Net Bible foot note in Deuteronomy 32:22 on Sheol. Also the Net Bible has no foot note in Luke 16:29 or 30 to Deuteronomy 32:22. Or any reference back to Moses.


                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                Lazarus was actually called a poor man. And being sick was dropped off at that rich man's porch.
                Where are you getting this?
                The word translated "beggar" πτωχος is more commonly translated "poor" like as "a poor man" (James 2:2).
                The word translated "gate" πυλωνα can very well be translated "porch" (Matthew 26:71).

                He was sick, being that he was "full of sores" and so sick that he "was laid," placed at, the rich man's gate. The word translated "was laid" εβεβλητο a verb, past perfect, indicating that Lazarus was placed there some time ago.

                Young's Literal translation: ". . . and there was a certain poor man, by name Lazarus, who was laid at his porch, full of sores, . . . "
                Last edited by 37818; 12-12-2015, 08:54 PM.
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by 37818
                  That is how you understand it. In my understanding it does.
                  If anything, "my anger will burn even to the lowest hell" makes it sound like the upper hell is getting more anger, not less.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                    If anything, "my anger will burn even to the lowest hell" makes it sound like the upper hell is getting more anger, not less.
                    The word "even" is only found in the Latin to English translation for Deuteronomy 32:22.
                    Holman Christian Standard Bible has, ". . . and burns to the depths of Sheol; . . ."
                    The KJV has, ". . . and shall burn unto the lowest hell, . . . "
                    The Hebrew translated "the lowest hell" is only found two places, Deuteronomy and that one Psalm of David. The fact that in the story the rich man was below and Abraham above lends itself to my understanding that Sheol/Hades had two compartments.
                    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      The word "even" is only found in the Latin to English translation for Deuteronomy 32:22.
                      It doesn't matter. The concept of "even down to the bottom" is clearly implied. The Bible (e.g., Revelation) makes it clear that God's wrath burns atop the planet surface. Deuteronomy 32 makes it clear that God's wrath burns down to the lowest hell. To imagine that God's wrath doesn't burn in between those two areas is unrealistic.

                      The fact that in the story the rich man was below and Abraham above lends itself to my understanding that Sheol/Hades had two compartments.
                      I don't think the story even specifically says that Abraham was above. You are taking the word "up" and running with it. Regardless, heaven is clearly "up" so even if Abraham was above, that part of the story does not undermine my theory that Lazarus was in heaven.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                        I do not agree with all of the Net Bible foot note in Deuteronomy 32:22 on Sheol.
                        Do you have any reason to believe it is wrong, or is it just contrary to your belief?
                        Also the Net Bible has no foot note in Luke 16:29 or 30 to Deuteronomy 32:22. Or any reference back to Moses.
                        Why should it? They do not believe (for good reason, AFAICS) that Deut 32:22 is applicable (they do, however, refer back to Deut. 14:28-29, which is a Mosaic reference).
                        The word translated "beggar" πτωχος is more commonly translated "poor" like as "a poor man" (James 2:2).
                        The word translated "gate" πυλωνα can very well be translated "porch" (Matthew 26:71).

                        He was sick, being that he was "full of sores" and so sick that he "was laid," placed at, the rich man's gate. The word translated "was laid" εβεβλητο a verb, past perfect, indicating that Lazarus was placed there some time ago.

                        Young's Literal translation: ". . . and there was a certain poor man, by name Lazarus, who was laid at his porch, full of sores, . . . "
                        Thanks. The reason that Lazarus was laid there would have been in hope that the rich man might take pity on him and help him. In other words, he was put there to beg for the rich man's charity. In ANE culture, beggars who could not move without assistance (or only with great difficulty) would have been placed in strategic positions by relatives too poor (or cynical*) to care for him themselves.

                        * unscrupulous relatives of the maimed would take money given to them for their own use
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                        sigpic
                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          Do you have any reason to believe it is wrong, or is it just contrary to your belief?
                          Yes, the study note [wrongly] states, "Sheol refers here not to hell and hell-fire – a much later concept . . . ." Which flatly denies this early reference to the fire in the lower part of Shoel. Error is the denial of truth.

                          Why should it? They do not believe (for good reason, AFAICS) that Deut 32:22 is applicable (they do, however, refer back to Deut. 14:28-29, which is a Mosaic reference).
                          Little wonder, noting the gross unbelief. Also the popular error that the account is a parable. That verse in Deuteronomy is the explanation of the fire in Hades/Sheol.
                          The reference of 14:28-29 does not warn of it. Which the rich man was asking. The irony is the Apostle John in his later gospel account makes mention of a Lazarus, a beloved friend of Jesus, whom Jesus did in fact raise from the dead. Luke's account being the earlier use of that name by Jesus in that true story.

                          Thanks. The reason that Lazarus was laid there would have been in hope that the rich man might take pity on him and help him. In other words, he was put there to beg for the rich man's charity. In ANE culture, beggars who could not move without assistance (or only with great difficulty) would have been placed in strategic positions by relatives too poor (or cynical*) to care for him themselves.

                          * unscrupulous relatives of the maimed would take money given to them for their own use
                          One [internet/blog] commentator suggested that Mary and Martha came and took him home before he died. Interpreting that that Lazarus was the same. The NET bible did translate the word "poor man."
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            Yes, the study note [wrongly] states, "Sheol refers here not to hell and hell-fire – a much later concept . . . ." Which flatly denies this early reference to the fire in the lower part of Shoel. Error is the denial of truth.
                            In other words, it's merely contrary to your belief.
                            Little wonder, noting the gross unbelief. Also the popular error that the account is a parable. That verse in Deuteronomy is the explanation of the fire in Hades/Sheol.
                            That is classic eisegesis.
                            The reference of 14:28-29 does not warn of it. Which the rich man was asking.
                            I don't understand your point. Are you saying that your complaint is not, after all, their lack of reference to Moses in general, but specifically to Deut. 32:22?
                            The irony is the Apostle John in his later gospel account makes mention of a Lazarus, a beloved friend of Jesus, whom Jesus did in fact raise from the dead. Luke's account being the earlier use of that name by Jesus in that true story.

                            One [internet/blog] commentator suggested that Mary and Martha came and took him home before he died. Interpreting that that Lazarus was the same. The NET bible did translate the word "poor man."
                            Internet blog commentators sometimes say all sorts of wrong things. The Lazarus that Jesus raised from the dead was manifestly not a poor man - he owned a house, where he lived with his sisters Mary and Martha, and had enough money that they could financially support Jesus and his disciples staying there when they were near Jerusalem. You're reading way too much into the names being the same.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I agree that Deuteronomy 32 is clearly talking about the place of the dead. The word sheol is used even as early as Genesis to refer to that. It's completely stupid to say that hell was made up later.

                              I just don't agree that Deuteronomy 32 suggests that there is an "upper hell" which is a nice place to live.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                                In other words, it's merely contrary to your belief.
                                Not merely. There are only two places in the Bible where a fire is referenced in the lower part of Sheol/Hades.

                                That is classic eisegesis.
                                Yes, saying it means something other than what it says. Yes, saying the story is a parable when it is not supported.

                                I don't understand your point. Are you saying that your complaint is not, after all, their lack of reference to Moses in general, but specifically to Deut. 32:22?
                                No reference is provided to support Abraham's argument. To warn of the place of torment.

                                Internet blog commentators sometimes say all sorts of wrong things. The Lazarus that Jesus raised from the dead was manifestly not a poor man - he owned a house, where he lived with his sisters Mary and Martha, and had enough money that they could financially support Jesus and his disciples staying there when they were near Jerusalem. You're reading way too much into the names being the same.
                                What text exegetically shows the house was Lazarus' house? That would be an important point.




                                Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                                I agree that Deuteronomy 32 is clearly talking about the place of the dead. The word sheol is used even as early as Genesis to refer to that. It's completely stupid to say that hell was made up later.

                                I just don't agree that Deuteronomy 32 suggests that there is an "upper hell" which is a nice place to live.
                                It only mentions the lower part where the fire is.
                                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                                Comment

                                widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
                                Working...
                                X