Islam Extremism is Hurting Christianity

[Adrift]

Just the other day there was a prayer meeting attended by 3 republican presidential canidates, whereat the preacher, a true psychopath if I ever saw one, was fiercely advocating for the death penalty for homosexual people. The congregation you would think would be horrified at hearing such talk, but no, that was not the case, they actually cheered his comments.

So I think I found the video you were referring to. Its the one edited and presented by Rachel Maddow, correct? Putting aside for a moment that Maddow is hardly an unbiased reporter on this subject, there's a couple corrections that need to be made. As far as I can tell this wasn't a "prayer meeting". It was something called the "National Religious Liberties Conference"...whatever that is. And the attendees were not part of some "congregation" as you put it...it was a pay-to-register event.

I agree with you that Swanson is completely wack-a-doo. Totally scary guy. Swanson quoted Leviticus and Romans on the Bible's well known stance on homosexuality, though he mis-contextualized Romans since Paul goes on in the same book to point out that we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and that the wages of that sin for all is death, but that we have been offered the free gift from God that is eternal life in Christ Jesus. A significant correction to your statement about Swanson, though. He did not advocate the death penalty. In fact, he quite plainly states (though admittedly, not very convincingly) that he does not believe the death penalty should be enacted towards homosexuals in America, and that he believes the reason it should not be enacted is so that homosexuals, and America in general, can repent of it's sins. Still...the guy is a raving loon.

Finally, this was a two day event with multiple speakers, and multiple workshops that each spanned the entire day. According to their schedule, Swanson spoke at least four times in those two days. There doesn't appear to be any indication (as far as I can tell) that the GOP candidates were present or aware of the the anti-homosexuality speech. In what appears to be a different clip at some other time Swanson mentions that the three candidates are present at the conference, though only Cruz comes up on stage to shake Swanson's hand at this particular scheduled part of the event.



Edit. Found the Youtube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBDbGyv6SIQ

Upon closer examination, it's as I thought. The first clip of Swanson and the second clip of Swanson were at different scheduled speaking points. In the first clip Swanson is wearing what appears to be a blue/black tie. In the second clip he's wearing a black striped tie.

[seanD]

The problem, in my opinion, is that religions give the psychopaths of the world the license to be psychopaths. If the word of god approves of genocide, of stoning or otherwise executing disbelievers or transgressors, or infidels, then what is evil becomes good because its the word of god.

This isn't a religious problem; it's a human problem. If you know history, more people have been slaughtered in masses in the last hundred years in the name of atheism and the state than religion. Point being, psychopaths are gonna psychopath regardless of the excuse.

[Cow Poke]

Never heard of the American Civil War? Or call it the War for Southern Independence if you're a full-out Confederate rebel...

The War of Northern Aggression

[Cow Poke]

So I think I found the video you were referring to. Its the one edited and presented by Rachel Maddow, correct? Putting aside for a moment that Maddow is hardly an unbiased reporter on this subject, there's a couple corrections that need to be made. As far as I can tell this wasn't a "prayer meeting". It was something called the "National Religious Liberties Conference"...whatever that is. And the attendees were not part of some "congregation" as you put it...it was a pay-to-register event.

I agree with you that Swanson is completely wack-a-doo. Totally scary guy. Swanson quoted Leviticus and Romans on the Bible's well known stance on homosexuality, though he mis-contextualized Romans since Paul goes on in the same book to point out that we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and that the wages of that sin for all is death, but that we have been offered the free gift from God that is eternal life in Christ Jesus. A significant correction to your statement about Swanson, though. He did not advocate the death penalty. In fact, he quite plainly states (though admittedly, not very convincingly) that he does not believe the death penalty should be enacted towards homosexuals in America, and that he believes the reason it should not be enacted is so that homosexuals, and America in general, can repent of it's sins. Still...the guy is a raving loon.

Finally, this was a two day event with multiple speakers, and multiple workshops that each spanned the entire day. According to their schedule, Swanson spoke at least four times in those two days. There doesn't appear to be any indication (as far as I can tell) that the GOP candidates were present or aware of the the anti-homosexuality speech. In what appears to be a different clip at some other time Swanson mentions that the three candidates are present at the conference, though only Cruz comes up on stage to shake Swanson's hand at this particular scheduled part of the event.



Edit. Found the Youtube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBDbGyv6SIQ

Upon closer examination, it's as I thought. The first clip of Swanson and the second clip of Swanson were at different scheduled speaking points. In the first clip Swanson is wearing what appears to be a blue/black tie. In the second clip he's wearing a black striped tie.

Yeah!

[Cow Poke]

This isn't a religious problem; it's a human problem. If you know history, more people have been slaughtered in masses in the last hundred years in the name of atheism and the state than religion. Point being, psychopaths are gonna psychopath regardless of the excuse.

It's just a lot easier when you can connect them to a cause or ideology you already oppose.

[Spartacus]

How do you/anyone here, feel about the idea that violence done in the name of "reason" is "legitimate" because God does not enter into it...?

To what extent would a division between religion/non-religion contribute to propaganda that tries to legitimize one kind of violence over another?.....

I don't think it's a question of secular "reason" so much as it is violence being made a last resort. This means using other means- diplomacy or argumentation- until they are exhausted, and only then risking a loss of life.

This is a view that comes out of the Christian understanding of every human life having dignity that comes from being made in God's own "image and likeness" (c.f. Genesis 1). Human life is sacred; therefore, we do not put it at risk until other options of achieving our goals are exhausted.

[JimL]

How do you/anyone here, feel about the idea that violence done in the name of "reason" is "legitimate" because God does not enter into it...?

To what extent would a division between religion/non-religion contribute to propaganda that tries to legitimize one kind of violence over another?.....

If it is legitimate then it is legitimate, and there are of course legitimate reasons to go to war, but the enforcement of ones beliefs upon another is not a legitimate reason to go to war. But that is what religion does, the outsiders are obviously unbelieving infidels who need either to submit or be killed. Religion is a way of legitimizing the immoral actions of the state upon individuals as well as upon other cultures. If it were understood that god did not exist, then he coudn't be used as a psychological trump over reason, or to enforce and legitimize the otherwise immoral acts of his adherents.

[Cow Poke]

If it is legitimate then it is legitimate, and there are of course legitimate reasons to go to war, but the enforcement of ones beliefs upon another is not a legitimate reason to go to war. But that is what religion does, the outsiders are obviously unbelieving infidels who need either to submit or be killed. Religion is a way of legitimizing the immoral actions of the state upon individuals as well as upon other cultures. If it were understood that god did not exist, then he coudn't be used as a psychological trump over reason, or to enforce and legitimize the otherwise immoral acts of his adherents.

Time to invoke Godwin's law.

[JimL]

This isn't a religious problem; it's a human problem. If you know history, more people have been slaughtered in masses in the last hundred years in the name of atheism and the state than religion. Point being, psychopaths are gonna psychopath regardless of the excuse.

Yes, religion and tyranny are somewhat synonymous in that regard. I'm all for ridding the world of unbelieving tyrants as well.

[Carrikature]

In my life I've not met anyone who has been hurt by Muslims. I do, however, have a number of gay friends who have been deeply hurt by things Christians have said and advocated for.

So I 100% grant you that according to my moral standards, Christianity may be justifiably ranked as a "better" religion than Islam (although this is somewhat relative, since both their holy books depicted God-endorsed genocides, the death penalty for homosexuality, endorse slavery, mandate head-coverings for women etc), but Christianity gets up close and personal in my life in a way that Islam doesn't - the amount of social and political power being wielded by Christians here trying to enforce their religious beliefs on others is orders of magnitude ahead of Muslims.

(Emphasis mine)

I think this is worth reiterating to all of you who don't understand the anti-Christian hate that is much more pervasive despite recent attacks. It's not about specific acts of violence. It's about general attitude and everyday experience.

When I hear about a radical Muslim terrorist, I do hear the 'Muslim' part. Mostly, I hear the 'radical' part. Maybe they're not all that radical. Islam isn't something I've put much effort into studying, but I wager the same is true for nearly everyone in the Western world. Sure, a lot of Christians will make claims about the 'true beliefs', but why should I accept what an adherent of one religion says about another? On what basis would I find that trustworthy? I wouldn't. I wouldn't trust a Baha'i to tell me about Jainism, a Muslim to tell me about Christianity, a Christian to tell me about Buddhism, or any combination thereof. I think Lewis Black puts it well when he says "you're getting it wrong, but that's understandable because it's not your book". So whatever. I go about life with little interaction with Muslims or Jainists or Buddhists or anything other than Christians, because first and foremost the US is a predominantly Christian nation however you slice it.

The point really is that 'extremist' is the operative word, not whatever other adjectives are generally applied. We have gunmen shooting up schools and movie theaters and military bases, but those are extremists or people with mental disorders (maybe one and the same). The guy that shot up Umpqua Community College here a few weeks back supposedly targeted Christians specifically. Should you be worried about atheists? Or should you be worried about extremists? I'm going with extremists. The atheist regimes that are so frequently referenced around here are as extreme as the Inquisition. The problem is still extremists. Their particular brand of crazy is less relevant than the fact that they're crazy.

Back in the day-to-day of real life, I'm faced with all sorts of religious ideas and beliefs. My wife's cousin goes on about having a lot of gay friends who she loves but still thinks they shouldn't be marrying (something my wife can't reconcile at all). We have people clamoring that they shouldn't have to bake a cake for 'those people', others insisting that all parents should know that some kid is using the 'wrong' bathroom, and still others doing everything they can to keep 'those people' from marrying even to the point of going to jail. These people aren't met with outrage or disownment by the general public, either. They're usually defended and/or lauded for their actions. A kid in North Texas who attended a private Christian school was forbidden to give his speech as valedictorian because he went to a friend's prom. I've heard plenty of similar stories about kids being refused diplomas (or threatened with refusal). Growing up in and around Christian churches shows all sorts of internal conflict/drama regarding the proper way to behave or the right things to believe. The long and short is that Christianity doesn't present itself as a religion of peace or forgiveness but as one of condemnation. It looks that way to outsiders, and it looks that way all too often from the inside.

Now you could take this as an anti-Christian rant, but that's not how I feel. There are a lot of things about Christianity, and religion in general, that I will gladly defend. Whatever the social and political power of Christians in the US (real or imagined), the 'up close and personal' bit that I underlined above is how people really interact with Christianity in a way that they don't interact with most other religions. Maybe were they faced with that same 'up close and personal' attitude from Islam, attitudes would extend to that religion as well. As it stands, Christianity is what we know and deal with so that's who gets more of the blame. Add to that the fact that Muslims are distancing themselves from these extremists while Christians are not doing the same for their own vocal minorities, and you have a good deal of public perception that's not getting countered the way it needs to be.

But is Islamic extremism hurting Christianity specifically, or is it really hurting religion in general? I'd argue the latter. The people advocating the eradication of religion don't care which religion you belong to. To them, extremism from whatever source is 'more of the same', and it's not necessary to look too closely at the actual source.

[Adrift]

Back in the day-to-day of real life, I'm faced with all sorts of religious ideas and beliefs. My wife's cousin goes on about having a lot of gay friends who she loves but still thinks they shouldn't be marrying (something my wife can't reconcile at all). We have people clamoring that they shouldn't have to bake a cake for 'those people', others insisting that all parents should know that some kid is using the 'wrong' bathroom, and still others doing everything they can to keep 'those people' from marrying even to the point of going to jail. These people aren't met with outrage or disownment by the general public, either. They're usually defended and/or lauded for their actions. A kid in North Texas who attended a private Christian school was forbidden to give his speech as valedictorian because he went to a friend's prom. I've heard plenty of similar stories about kids being refused diplomas (or threatened with refusal). Growing up in and around Christian churches shows all sorts of internal conflict/drama regarding the proper way to behave or the right things to believe. The long and short is that Christianity doesn't present itself as a religion of peace or forgiveness but as one of condemnation. It looks that way to outsiders, and it looks that way all too often from the inside.

What's weird about this is that all of this is flipped in the world that I live in, the people I know, and the society I'm familiar with. Perhaps its a regional thing. Perhaps is a perspective thing. I suspect it's a little of both. What I see is a world that has woefully confused good for evil, and evil for good. Where behavior that is hurting families, hurting relationships, and confusing children is glorified. Where we praise the mentally and spiritually ill for pretending to be something they ain't, and then turn on the sensible who point this out and call them sick and twisted. Christians are increasingly met with outrage and resentment for taking seriously their convictions by peaceful means. They've become the butt of jokes by their peers, the media, their educators, and society at large. We live in a so-called Christian nation, yet valedictorians (also in Texas) are having their speeches censored or mics shut off for mentioning the most important and life changing person they know. Its easy to point fingers at Christianity and blame it for not presenting itself as a religion of peace and forgiveness when unbelief, by definition, stands for nothing, and presents nothing except "don't judge me", and "anything goes". And by "anything goes" what is meant is "anything goes as long as it doesn't hurt others", but the sad truth is, for good or for bad, everything we do has an effect on everyone else, and there is plenty of potential to hurt others in ways that our limited myopic vision cannot and will not perceive. As a Christian, I've been an outsider my entire life. I know what it is to be that weird religious kid who takes his faith a little too seriously. "Keep your moral views and values at church. Don't mention it around your friends or at your school or at your job. If you do, expect the mockery and derision, and, at the very least, the cold shoulder you deserve. Tolerate our views, and our lifestyles, don't judge, don't condemn, only forgive, but expect no toleration or forgiveness back. You're free to speak your mind as long as it agrees with our modern, non-religious social narrative."

Whatever the social and political power of Christians in the US (real or imagined), the 'up close and personal' bit that I underlined above is how people really interact with Christianity in a way that they don't interact with most other religions. Maybe were they faced with that same 'up close and personal' attitude from Islam, attitudes would extend to that religion as well. As it stands, Christianity is what we know and deal with so that's who gets more of the blame.

Like I said elsewhere, familiarity breeds contempt.

Add to that the fact that Muslims are distancing themselves from these extremists while Christians are not doing the same for their own vocal minorities, and you have a good deal of public perception that's not getting countered the way it needs to be.

It likely depends on what we consider extremism. When I think Christian extremism I think of warped African warlords leading child armies to hack civilians to death with machetes. I'm assuming what you had in mind, though, was the pastor who, from the pulpit condemns abortion and praises life, who condemns unhealthy relationships and praises healthy ones. Unfortunately a good many people who are Christians or who call themselves Christian are distancing themselves from that sort of "extremism". Our mainline churches are shrinking as more and more people identify more with the secular world around them, and less of the Jesus they know in the Bible.

But is Islamic extremism hurting Christianity specifically, or is it really hurting religion in general? I'd argue the latter. The people advocating the eradication of religion don't care which religion you belong to. To them, extremism from whatever source is 'more of the same', and it's not necessary to look too closely at the actual source.

The point of my OP entirely. Islamic extremism is hurting Christianity, maybe not specifically, but certainly in the generality, and because Christianity is the religion that most people know in the West, it does get rather specific.

[The Thinker]

the recent spate of Islamic extremism is dirtying the name of religion. Secularists look at these attacks and while many acknowledge that it's an issue with a particular branch of extremism, many seem to group all religions in the same bucket.

Excuse me? Religion had a bad name way before the recent spate of Islamic extremism. Do you know about the Crusades, or the Inquisition, the 30 years war, or more recently, the "Troubles" in Northern Ireland and the rise of the extreme Christian Right in the US? Religion has had a bad wrap for centuries. Thank Zeus it's finally dying fast enough to the point where the grave is in sight.

[Cow Poke]

Excuse me? Religion had a bad name way before the recent spate of Islamic extremism. Do you know about the Crusades, or the Inquisition, the 30 years war, or more recently, the "Troubles" in Northern Ireland and the rise of the extreme Christian Right in the US? Religion has had a bad wrap for centuries. Thank Zeus it's finally dying fast enough to the point where the grave is in sight.

I guess it's sad for you that you won't see the death of Christianity in your lifetime.

[One Bad Pig]

Excuse me? Religion had a bad name way before the recent spate of Islamic extremism. Do you know about the Crusades, or the Inquisition, the 30 years war, or more recently, the "Troubles" in Northern Ireland and the rise of the extreme Christian Right in the US? Religion has had a bad wrap for centuries. Thank Zeus it's finally dying fast enough to the point where the grave is in sight.

You'd dearly like to think so, wouldn't you?

[Zymologist]

I'm pretty sure that people have been rejoicing over the impending demise of Christianity for a long, long time. Some have even tried to exterminate it.

Just hasn't stuck, I guess.