Abortion derail from the Active Shooter thread

[Carrikature]

It's amazing to me to watch people insist that the vernacular usage of a word be the only possible usage. All this fuss about how 'baby' is generally used is completely is completely irrelevant. Yeah, you call the thing in your womb your baby. You call a car a baby. You call an adult your baby. You call a pet project your baby. None of these things are actually babies, but no one calls you on it because we know what you mean. You don't call it a baby because you think it's a baby, you call it a baby because of the overtones of how it should be treated or how important it is to you.

It's silly to insist there are no differences between an entity that relies 100% on a specific person for the blood in its body and the nutrients it receives and an entity that needs nutrients which can be supplied by literally anyone. A lot happens during birth that can't just be hand-waved.

It's silly to insist that 'personhood' is a thing that can be granted or revoked. It doesn't exist. Rights don't exist. Personhood doesn't exist. They're classifications we use, nothing more. Refusing the distinction doesn't change what actually is.

[Carrikature]

But I was wondering how long it would take before some-one assumed that atheist->abortion advocate.

I doubt you'll be the only one.

You get used to it, I guess. I mostly chalk it up to ignorance.

[Jedidiah]

It's silly to insist that 'personhood' is a thing that can be granted or revoked. It doesn't exist. Rights don't exist. Personhood doesn't exist. They're classifications we use, nothing more. Refusing the distinction doesn't change what actually is.

I agree with this. As I have said before the whole concept of personhood is only exists to make it possible to revoke it, or somehow rationalize abortion.

[Jedidiah]

You get used to it, I guess. I mostly chalk it up to ignorance.

I fail to understand this. There are several atheists on TWeb who oppose abortion. Why do you pretend that we do not recognize this?

[Carrikature]

I fail to understand this. There are several atheists on TWeb who oppose abortion. Why do you pretend that we do not recognize this?

Because the default is still "only Christians are anti-abortion".

But 'pretend'? I don't see it being recognized. There's nothing dishonest about it.

[Zymologist]

Because the default is still "only Christians are anti-abortion".

But 'pretend'? I don't see it being recognized. There's nothing dishonest about it.

I made another post to Roy that you may have missed, but regardless, I honestly wasn't intending to characterize him as "pro-abortion because he's an atheist" in my post.

[Jedidiah]

I made another post to Roy that you may have missed, but regardless, I honestly wasn't intending to characterize him as "pro-abortion because he's an atheist" in my post.

It is just Roy making that assumption. He 'feels' that 'we' assume 'he' is pro abortion because he is atheist. No one made any such connection that I noticed.

[Tassman]

No matter how many times you repeat that, it doesn't make it true.

Correct. No matter how many times you refer to a fetus/embryo as a “baby or “unborn child” (except colloquially), it remains a human embryo/fetus. And, whilst it commands respect as a potential human being, it does not have the same value as a fully-fledged human...and nor is it regarded as such in Law.

The religion from which Jesus arose gets it right: “An unborn fetus in Jewish law is not considered a person (Heb.nefesh, lit. “soul”) until it has been born. The fetus is regarded as a part of the mother’s body and not a separate being until it begins to egress from the womb during parturition (childbirth)…”

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/arti...in-jewish-law/

This position on abortion is the most sensible one and the only one that takes the rights of the woman into account, something which many on the Christian right seem to ignore completely…to the extent of public persecution.

[Cow Poke]

Correct. No matter how many times you refer to a fetus/embryo as a “baby or “unborn child” (except colloquially), it remains a human....

And killing innocent humans for no other reason that they're "inconvenient" is sick.

[Tassman]

And killing innocent humans for no other reason that they're "inconvenient" is sick.

What is “sick” is the decades-long history of anti-abortion violence in the US based upon the personal views of some Christians and their dishonest propaganda about what they consider constitutes a “human”.

Many people do not consider an unborn fetus to be a fully-fledged human…as I’ve referenced… and such people do not warrant targeting from the likes of the so-called ‘Centre for Medical Progress’, and its supporters, which recently released heavily edited, deceptive and dishonest videos about Planned Parenthood.

All evidence suggests the Planned Parenthood shooting in Colorado Springs was act of domestic terrorism. And the inciters of this terrorism are people like you.

[Jedidiah]

Laws have been determined to be wrong before. This law will ultimately be revealed as wrong, as wrong as can be. You can deny the humanity of the unborn all you like. They are still human, fully human.

Correct. No matter how many times you refer to a fetus/embryo as a “baby or “unborn child” (except colloquially), it remains a human embryo/fetus. And, whilst it commands respect as a potential human being, it does not have the same value as a fully-fledged human...and nor is it regarded as such in Law.

[CMD]

Many people do not consider an unborn fetus to be a fully-fledged human…

What exactly do you mean by "fully-fledged?" Human physical development doesn't peak until anywhere from the late teens to the mid twenties, and mental development is not complete until around the mid twenties, so one could very easily say that until someone hits their mid twenties, they are not "fully-fledged human."

And "many people do not consider..." is irrelevant to reality. Many racists "do not consider" black people to be "fully-fledged human," for instance.

[Tassman]

Laws have been determined to be wrong before. This law will ultimately be revealed as wrong, as wrong as can be. You can deny the humanity of the unborn all you like. They are still human, fully human.

This is your opinion, many disagree. ALL are entitled to their views in a secular society.

What exactly do you mean by "fully-fledged?" Human physical development doesn't peak until anywhere from the late teens to the mid twenties, and mental development is not complete until around the mid twenties, so one could very easily say that until someone hits their mid twenties, they are not "fully-fledged human."

You're referring to adulthood or maturity whereas I'm making the comparison between "human" and an embryo/fetus as understood in in traditional Jewish Law and many other bodies...including many other other Christian congregations.

"An unborn fetus in Jewish law is not considered a person (Heb. nefesh, lit. “soul”) until it has been born. The fetus is regarded as a part of the mother’s body and not a separate being until it begins to egress from the womb during parturition (childbirth)."

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/arti...in-jewish-law/

And "many people do not consider..." is irrelevant to reality. Many racists "do not consider" black people to be "fully-fledged human," for instance.

The point is that there are several valid opinions regarding the status of the embryo/fetus, not just the one espoused by the Catholic Church and Evangelical Christians.

http://abortion.procon.org/view.reso...ourceID=004208

[Cow Poke]

What is “sick” is the decades-long history of anti-abortion violence in the US

Anti-abortion violence is wrong. Period.

based upon the personal views of some Christians and their dishonest propaganda about what they consider constitutes a “human”.

It's not just Christians. Many unbelievers also know that a human is being murdered, and your goofy attempt to make it "dishonest propaganda" is noted. You're not playing with a full deck.

[Cow Poke]

All evidence suggests the Planned Parenthood shooting in Colorado Springs was act of domestic terrorism.

By a man who is a little less emotionally stable than you, apparently.