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The Baha'i Faith - Satan and the ego

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  • #16
    Originally posted by siam View Post
    Human nature---would that answer imply that human nature is too diverse (therefore unknowable---undefinable) in the Bahai conception of human nature?
    No, be careful how you cite me as 'implying,' it is clearly misleading concerning what I stated. No, though human nature is diverse, it is not unknowable nor undefinable. The nature of humanity can clearly be objectively observed in the natural world.

    Gods law/Ethics---You are implying a division between God's law and Ethics-morality---does that mean that Ethics and Morality are NOT part of God's Law in Bahai ?
    Morals and ethics are clearly defined as used in the English language, and do vary in human society from culture to culture and over time.

    Source: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/morality-definition/


    The term “morality” can be used either
    1.descriptively to refer to some codes of conduct put forward by a society or, a. some other group, such as a religion, or b. accepted by an individual for her own behavior or

    2.normatively to refer to a code of conduct that, given specified conditions, would be put forward by all rational persons.

    What “morality” is taken to refer to plays a crucial, although often unacknowledged, role in formulating ethical theories. To take “morality” to refer to an actually existing code of conduct put forward by a society results in a denial that there is a universal morality, one that applies to all human beings. This descriptive use of “morality” is the one used by anthropologists when they report on the morality of the societies that they study. Recently, some comparative and evolutionary psychologists (Haidt, Hauser, De Waal) have taken morality, or a close anticipation of it, to be present among groups of non-human animals, primarily other primates but not limited to them. “Morality” has also been taken to refer to any code of conduct that a person or group takes as most important.

    © Copyright Original Source



    God's Law is a higher standard. Many morals and ethics are based on and derived from God's Law, but many are not. In the modern world many morals and ethics are increasingly based on the higher standard of Baha'i Laws and principles.

    For example: God's Law in the Baha'i writings that all kinds of slavery and indentured servitude is forbidden has increasingly become the basis for morals and ethics throughout the world.

    If morals and ethics are "human values of behavior" yet human nature is unknowable---are Ethics/Morality relative and/or utilitarian in Bahai paradigm?
    No, human nature is NOT entirely unknowable. The nature of and the "human values of behavior" can clearly be objectively observed. It is the ultimate nature of God that is unknowable. God created humanity with the attributes of God. God's Laws represent the evolving foundation for the spiritual nature of humanity. Clearly morals and ethics are descriptive of human standards of behavior, and not consistent.

    "Man is the supreme Talisman. Lack of a proper education hath, however, deprived him of that which he doth inherently possess. Through a word proceeding out of the mouth of God he was called into being; by one word more he was guided to recognize the Source of his education; by yet another word his station and destiny were safeguarded. The Great Being saith: Regard man as a mine rich in gems of inestimable value. Education can, alone, cause it to reveal its treasures, and enable mankind to benefit therefrom. If any man were to meditate on that which the Scriptures, sent down from the heaven of God’s holy Will, have revealed, he would readily recognize that their purpose is that all men shall be regarded as one soul, so that the seal bearing the words “The Kingdom shall be God’s” may be stamped on every heart, and the light of Divine bounty, of grace, and mercy may envelop all mankind. The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath wished nothing for Himself. The allegiance of mankind profiteth Him not, neither doth its perversity harm Him. The Bird of the Realm of Utterance voiceth continually this call: “All things have I willed for thee, and thee, too, for thine own sake.” If the learned and worldly-wise men of this age were to allow mankind to inhale the fragrance of fellowship and love, every understanding heart would apprehend the meaning of true liberty, and discover the secret of undisturbed peace and absolute composure. Were the earth to attain this station and be illumined with its light it could then be truly said of it: “Thou shall see in it no hollows or rising hills.”

    CXXII Katab-i-Iqan Baha'u'llah

    "Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My Words" Baha-u-llah

    I do not mind this side step from the topic of the thread, but the topic of this thread is more in the line of 'God is the supreme and only Divine Will of all of Existence. There is no other will like Satan or the Devil that can exist contesting the Will of God.'
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-11-2015, 07:12 AM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      Yes.
      Will there be another one?

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by arnoldo View Post
        Will there be another one?
        As long as humanity exists there will be cycles of Revelation, and Messiahs to reveal the spiritual guidance for humanity as humanity spiritually evolves. This is true for all possible worlds in all possible universes.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          As long as humanity exists there will be cycles of Revelation, and Messiahs to reveal the spiritual guidance for humanity as humanity spiritually evolves. This is true for all possible worlds in all possible universes.
          R U the 1 4 this cycle?

          Bahá'u'lláh, the founder of the Bahá'í Faith, explained that the appearance of successive messengers was like the annual coming of Spring, which brings new life to the world which has come to neglect the teachings of the previous messenger.He also used an analogy of the world as the human body, and revelation as a robe of justice and wisdom.

          "Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared."
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progre...3%A1%27%C3%AD)

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by arnoldo View Post
            R U the 1 4 this cycle?
            Do not understand, please exlain.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              Do not understand, please exlain.
              "R U the 1 4 this cycle?" = "Are you the one for this cycle?"

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by chrawnus View Post
                "r u the 1 4 this cycle?" = "are you the one for this cycle?"
                phfffft!
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  phfffft!
                  I guess that means no. Do you have any idea if there's been another messiah since Bahá'u'lláh?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by arnoldo View Post
                    I guess that means no. Do you have any idea if there's been another messiah since Bahá'u'lláh?
                    Messianic cycles are ten to hundreds of thousands of years long. The time between Messiahs is usually hundreds if not more than a thousand years apart. Each cycle begins with an 'Adam' or the first Messianic Revelation of that cycle.

                    The Baha'i Faith and I believe Messianic Revelation has been universal and cyclic with ALL culture so humanity, and Abraham's promise that God will never leave humanity alone without Revelation and guidance is a witness that Revelation is not selective to one place and and limited times in history. Messianic Revelation is the evolving spiritual process of the maturing of humanity over time.

                    In fact Creation and Revelation are not distinctly different processes, but aspects of God' eternal relationship to God's Creation. As our universe is Created physically and cyclically unfolds and evolves the spiritual nature of our existence cyclically evolves through Revelation.

                    I have no need to be particularly concerned with another Revelation, because it has only been ~160 years since the beginning of the Baha'i Revelation of this cycle. We have a long way to go to accept the spiritual teaching of this Revelation.
                    Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-13-2015, 08:35 AM.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      There have been posts with selective references concerning the view of Satan and Satanic in reference to Judaism without understanding the whole view of what Satan means in the Baha'i writings. I will also refer to references from other religions and their scriptures how this relates to the Baha'i view.

                      Selective references with the purposes of criticizing the Baha'i Faith without understanding the context in the whole writings of the Baha'i is a very biased way to approach a religion that believes differently. For a better understanding all anyone needed to do was google 'Baha'i Satan' and this reference would be one of the results. ...
                      Presumably this is directed at me, but, if so, you have misunderstood my purpose. My intent is not to criticize the Baha'i faith, for which I have a great deal of respect, but merely to explore your own personal ability to engage in self-critical theological reflection regarding your beliefs and their temporally bound authoritative expression in your holy scriptures.

                      Whether you or other Baha'i believe in the reality of Satan as an actual being or metaphor is completely irrelevant to the use of anti-Jewish rhetoric. Whether Satan is real or just an expression of "the dark, animalistic heritage each one of us has, the lower nature that can develop into a monster of selfishness, brutality, lust and so on," the use of such language for Judaism as a whole is still anti-Jewish rhetoric in my opinion. If you do not believe that Jews have a lower nature than anyone else, nor that they are any more likely to develop into monsters of selfishness, brutality, lust and so on, then why use such language to describe Judaism?

                      When asked, you were not willing to say that Baha'i also are cursed and wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy or that God has laid hold of the Baha'i for their sins, or that he has extinguished in them the spirit of faith, and tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire. I don't think any of this rhetoric shows proper respect for profound Jewish, Christian, Islamic, or Baha'i faiths. You do not agree that this is anti-Jewish rhetoric, so I invited you to ask Jews directly if they feel that this language is an example of anti-Jewish rhetoric. Why not do so?
                      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                        Presumably this is directed at me, but, if so, you have misunderstood my purpose. My intent is not to criticize the Baha'i faith, for which I have a great deal of respect, but merely to explore your own personal ability to engage in self-critical theological reflection regarding your beliefs and their temporally bound authoritative expression in your holy scriptures.

                        Whether you or other Baha'i believe in the reality of Satan as an actual being or metaphor is completely irrelevant to the use of anti-Jewish rhetoric. Whether Satan is real or just an expression of "the dark, animalistic heritage each one of us has, the lower nature that can develop into a monster of selfishness, brutality, lust and so on," the use of such language for Judaism as a whole is still anti-Jewish rhetoric in my opinion. If you do not believe that Jews have a lower nature than anyone else, nor that they are any more likely to develop into monsters of selfishness, brutality, lust and so on, then why use such language to describe Judaism?

                        When asked, you were not willing to say that Baha'i also are cursed and wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy or that God has laid hold of the Baha'i for their sins, or that he has extinguished in them the spirit of faith, and tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire. I don't think any of this rhetoric shows proper respect for profound Jewish, Christian, Islamic, or Baha'i faiths. You do not agree that this is anti-Jewish rhetoric, so I invited you to ask Jews directly if they feel that this language is an example of anti-Jewish rhetoric. Why not do so?
                        . . . because you are anchored in an ancient world view of what Satanic means, and yes your attack was venomous and and selective showing absolutely no respect for the Baha'i Faith, nor any over all consideration nor understanding of the overall beliefs and teachings in the scriptures. This has been the history of our dialogue, and this response shows no improvement.

                        You still are neglecting the fact that 'Satan' and 'Satanic' refers to the base Egoistic nature of ALL humans and result is very obvious in history.

                        You are still living in a glass house chucking boulders totally neglecting and being selective about the history and beliefs of your own faith.

                        If you were speaking more from an atheist or strong agnostic perspective your line of reasoning would be more honest.
                        Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-13-2015, 12:38 PM.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          . . . because you are anchored in an ancient world view of what Satanic means, and yes your attack was venomous and and selective showing absolutely no respect for the Baha'i Faith, nor any over all consideration nor understanding of the overall beliefs and teachings in the scriptures. This has been the history of our dialogue, and this response shows no improvement.

                          You still are neglecting the fact that 'Satan' and 'Satanic' refers to the base Egoistic nature of ALL humans and result is very obvious in history.

                          You are still living in a glass house chucking boulders totally neglecting and being selective about the history and beliefs of your own faith.

                          If you were speaking more from an atheist or strong agnostic perspective your line of reasoning would be more honest.
                          Whether or not I am honest or dishonest, hypocritical or not, neglectful or selective about the history of the Christian faith, anchored in an ancient worldview or not, respectful of the Baha'i faith and scriptures or venomously attacking it or not, has zero relevance to the question of whether or not the passage in question uses anti-Jewish rhetoric. This is just your typical ad hominem approach when you do not have a good response.

                          The ad hominem nature of your approach is compounded by the fact that these are all completely false accusations against me. If memory serves me correctly, I have only ever been critical of two things about the Baha'i faith. I think it should be possible for the Baha'i to allow women to serve in their Universal House of Justice without the need for a new and special revelation from God saying that this is now allowed. And I do not like Bahá'u'lláh's anti-Jewish rhetoric in this particular passage. These two criticisms are not in any way venomous; nor are they hypocritical. I am critical of these same exact things, and plenty more, when found among Christians or any other people of faith.

                          Nor did I neglect the fact that you consider 'Satan' and 'Satanic' to refer to the egotistic nature of all humanity; as I said, I consider it irrelevant to the question of whether or not the passage in question uses anti-Jewish rhetoric. If you were willing to say that Baha'i also are cursed and wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy and that God has laid hold of the Baha'i for their sins, and that he has extinguished in them the spirit of faith, and tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire, then it might have some relevance. Have you forgotten that?
                          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            Messianic cycles are ten to hundreds of thousands of years long. The time between Messiahs is usually hundreds if not more than a thousand years apart. Each cycle begins with an 'Adam' or the first Messianic Revelation of that cycle.

                            The Baha'i Faith and I believe Messianic Revelation has been universal and cyclic with ALL culture so humanity, and Abraham's promise that God will never leave humanity alone without Revelation and guidance is a witness that Revelation is not selective to one place and and limited times in history. Messianic Revelation is the evolving spiritual process of the maturing of humanity over time.

                            In fact Creation and Revelation are not distinctly different processes, but aspects of God' eternal relationship to God's Creation. As our universe is Created physically and cyclically unfolds and evolves the spiritual nature of our existence cyclically evolves through Revelation.

                            I have no need to be particularly concerned with another Revelation, because it has only been ~160 years since the beginning of the Baha'i Revelation of this cycle. We have a long way to go to accept the spiritual teaching of this Revelation.
                            Thank you for your thoughtful response.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                              Whether or not I am honest or dishonest, hypocritical or not, neglectful or selective about the history of the Christian faith, anchored in an ancient worldview or not, respectful of the Baha'i faith and scriptures or venomously attacking it or not, has zero relevance to the question of whether or not the passage in question uses anti-Jewish rhetoric. This is just your typical ad hominem approach when you do not have a good response.

                              The ad hominem nature of your approach is compounded by the fact that these are all completely false accusations against me. If memory serves me correctly, I have only ever been critical of two things about the Baha'i faith. I think it should be possible for the Baha'i to allow women to serve in their Universal House of Justice without the need for a new and special revelation from God saying that this is now allowed. And I do not like Bahá'u'lláh's anti-Jewish rhetoric in this particular passage. These two criticisms are not in any way venomous; nor are they hypocritical. I am critical of these same exact things, and plenty more, when found among Christians or any other people of faith.

                              Nor did I neglect the fact that you consider 'Satan' and 'Satanic' to refer to the egotistic nature of all humanity; as I said, I consider it irrelevant to the question of whether or not the passage in question uses anti-Jewish rhetoric. If you were willing to say that Baha'i also are cursed and wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy and that God has laid hold of the Baha'i for their sins, and that he has extinguished in them the spirit of faith, and tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire, then it might have some relevance. Have you forgotten that?
                              I have forgotten nothing! Nothing here has the literal meaning you would propose in your archaic world view of literal meanings of these terms. There is no such thing thing as a literal Satan, Hell, nor nethermost fire. These are parallels of the very real world violence between religions like Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

                              . . . because you are anchored in an ancient world view of what Satanic means, and yes your attack was venomous and and selective showing absolutely no respect for the Baha'i Faith, nor any over all consideration nor understanding of the overall beliefs and teachings in the scriptures. This has been the history of our dialogue, and this response shows no improvement.

                              You still are neglecting the fact that 'Satan' and 'Satanic' refers to the base Egoistic nature of ALL humans and result is very obvious in history.

                              You are still living in a glass house chucking boulders totally neglecting and being selective about the history and beliefs of your own faith.

                              If you were speaking more from an atheist or strong agnostic perspective your line of reasoning would be more honest.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                                . . I think it should be possible for the Baha'i to allow women to serve in their Universal House of Justice without the need for a new and special revelation from God saying that this is now allowed. . .
                                'Abdu'l-Baha stance towards women seems pretty progressive for it's time.

                                The world of humanity is possessed of two wings: the male and the female. So long as these two wings are not equivalent in strength, the bird will not fly. Until womankind reaches the same degree as man, until she enjoys the same arena of activity, extraordinary attainment for humanity will not be realized; humanity cannot wing its way to heights of real attainment. When the two wings or parts become equivalent in strength, enjoying the same prerogatives, the flight of man will be exceedingly lofty and extraordinary... until this equality is established, true progress and attainment for the human race will not be facilitated. ('Abdu'l-Baha, Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 375)
                                http://www.uhj.net/women-on-uhj.html
                                Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                                And I do not like Bahá'u'lláh's anti-Jewish rhetoric in this particular passage. These two criticisms are not in any way venomous; nor are they hypocritical. I am critical of these same exact things, and plenty more, when found among Christians or any other people of faith.
                                Can you give an example of Bahá'u'lláh's anti-Jewish rhetoric?

                                Comment

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