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Thread: The Baha'i Faith - Satan and the ego

  1. #11
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    There have been posts with selective references concerning the view of Satan and Satanic in reference to Judaism without understanding the whole view of what Satan means in the Baha'i writings. I will also refer to references from other religions and their scriptures how this relates to the Baha'i view.

    Selective references with the purposes of criticizing the Baha'i Faith without understanding the context in the whole writings of the Baha'i is a very biased way to approach a religion that believes differently. For a better understanding all anyone needed to do was google 'Baha'i Satan' and this reference would be one of the results.

    Source: http://www.religionfacts.com/evil/bahai



    The Bahá'í Faith rejects the concept of "original sin" or any doctrine that teaches people are basically evil or have intrinsically evil elements in their nature. All the forces and faculties within us are God-given and thus potentially beneficial to our spiritual development.

    However, if a person, through his own God-given free will, turns away from this force or fails to make the necessary effort to develop his spiritual capacities, the result is imperfection. `Abdu'l-Bahá said that "evil is imperfection."

    The Bahá'í Faith denies the existence of Satan, a devil, or an "evil force." Evil does not have independent existence, but is rather the absence of good, just as darkness is the absence of light and cold is the absence of heat. Just as the sun is the unique source of all life in a solar system, so ultimately is there only one force or power in the universe, the force we call God.

    Bahá'u'lláh explained that references to Satan in the Scriptures of earlier religions are symbolic and should not be taken literally. Satan is the personification of man's lower nature which can destroy him if it is not brought into harmony with his spiritual nature. There is, in fact, a well-known philosophical problem concerning God's goodness and omnipotence and the possible existence of a Satan. This problem is discussed in some detail in both the writings of Bahá'u'lláh and `Abdu'l-Bahá.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Any references to Satan or Satanic in the Baha'i writings should be understood in the light of this understanding which applies to the nature of all humanity, and not selectively to reference to one person, culture nor religion.

    In this view all humanity is subject to temptation and seductive nature of the 'ego.'
    1) Are humans (human nature) good, both good and bad, or neutral?

    2) Is God good, both good and bad, neutral, or some other formulation?

    3) If evil is the absence of good---how would the term "ethics/morals" be defined and on what basis would their principles be formulated?

  2. #12
    tWebber arnoldo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faber View Post
    He claimed to be the messiah of several religions. But not to be concerned. The guy's stone cold dead.
    Attachment 11801
    Perhaps he got reincarnated and is living on another planet?

  3. #13
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    1) Are humans (human nature) good, both good and bad, or neutral?
    Humans are humans as created by God.

    2) Is God good, both good and bad, neutral, or some other formulation?
    God is God, and cannot be described in human terms such as; good, both good and bad, neutral, or some other formulation.

    3) If evil is the absence of good---how would the term "ethics/morals" be defined and on what basis would their principles be formulated?
    Morals and ethics are human values of behavior in different societies and cultures. God's Revelation and Law is God's Revelation and Law. A higher standard than morals and ethics.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-10-2015 at 09:56 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arnoldo View Post
    Is Bahá'u'lláh a Messiah, bring a Revelation from God to humanity?
    Yes.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  5. #15
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Humans are humans as created by God.



    God is God, and cannot be described in human terms such as; good, both good and bad, neutral, or some other formulation.



    Morals and ethics are human values of behavior in different societies and cultures. God's Revelation and Law is God's Revelation and Law. A higher standard than morals and ethics.
    Human nature---would that answer imply that human nature is too diverse (therefore unknowable---undefinable) in the Bahai conception of human nature?

    Gods law/Ethics---You are implying a division between God's law and Ethics-morality---does that mean that Ethics and Morality are NOT part of God's Law in Bahai ?

    If morals and ethics are "human values of behavior" yet human nature is unknowable---are Ethics/Morality relative and/or utilitarian in Bahai paradigm?

  6. #16
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    Human nature---would that answer imply that human nature is too diverse (therefore unknowable---undefinable) in the Bahai conception of human nature?
    No, be careful how you cite me as 'implying,' it is clearly misleading concerning what I stated. No, though human nature is diverse, it is not unknowable nor undefinable. The nature of humanity can clearly be objectively observed in the natural world.

    Gods law/Ethics---You are implying a division between God's law and Ethics-morality---does that mean that Ethics and Morality are NOT part of God's Law in Bahai ?
    Morals and ethics are clearly defined as used in the English language, and do vary in human society from culture to culture and over time.

    Source: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/morality-definition/


    The term “morality” can be used either
    1.descriptively to refer to some codes of conduct put forward by a society or, a. some other group, such as a religion, or b. accepted by an individual for her own behavior or

    2.normatively to refer to a code of conduct that, given specified conditions, would be put forward by all rational persons.

    What “morality” is taken to refer to plays a crucial, although often unacknowledged, role in formulating ethical theories. To take “morality” to refer to an actually existing code of conduct put forward by a society results in a denial that there is a universal morality, one that applies to all human beings. This descriptive use of “morality” is the one used by anthropologists when they report on the morality of the societies that they study. Recently, some comparative and evolutionary psychologists (Haidt, Hauser, De Waal) have taken morality, or a close anticipation of it, to be present among groups of non-human animals, primarily other primates but not limited to them. “Morality” has also been taken to refer to any code of conduct that a person or group takes as most important.

    © Copyright Original Source



    God's Law is a higher standard. Many morals and ethics are based on and derived from God's Law, but many are not. In the modern world many morals and ethics are increasingly based on the higher standard of Baha'i Laws and principles.

    For example: God's Law in the Baha'i writings that all kinds of slavery and indentured servitude is forbidden has increasingly become the basis for morals and ethics throughout the world.

    If morals and ethics are "human values of behavior" yet human nature is unknowable---are Ethics/Morality relative and/or utilitarian in Bahai paradigm?
    No, human nature is NOT entirely unknowable. The nature of and the "human values of behavior" can clearly be objectively observed. It is the ultimate nature of God that is unknowable. God created humanity with the attributes of God. God's Laws represent the evolving foundation for the spiritual nature of humanity. Clearly morals and ethics are descriptive of human standards of behavior, and not consistent.

    "Man is the supreme Talisman. Lack of a proper education hath, however, deprived him of that which he doth inherently possess. Through a word proceeding out of the mouth of God he was called into being; by one word more he was guided to recognize the Source of his education; by yet another word his station and destiny were safeguarded. The Great Being saith: Regard man as a mine rich in gems of inestimable value. Education can, alone, cause it to reveal its treasures, and enable mankind to benefit therefrom. If any man were to meditate on that which the Scriptures, sent down from the heaven of God’s holy Will, have revealed, he would readily recognize that their purpose is that all men shall be regarded as one soul, so that the seal bearing the words “The Kingdom shall be God’s” may be stamped on every heart, and the light of Divine bounty, of grace, and mercy may envelop all mankind. The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath wished nothing for Himself. The allegiance of mankind profiteth Him not, neither doth its perversity harm Him. The Bird of the Realm of Utterance voiceth continually this call: “All things have I willed for thee, and thee, too, for thine own sake.” If the learned and worldly-wise men of this age were to allow mankind to inhale the fragrance of fellowship and love, every understanding heart would apprehend the meaning of true liberty, and discover the secret of undisturbed peace and absolute composure. Were the earth to attain this station and be illumined with its light it could then be truly said of it: “Thou shall see in it no hollows or rising hills.”

    CXXII Katab-i-Iqan Baha'u'llah

    "Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My Words" Baha-u-llah

    I do not mind this side step from the topic of the thread, but the topic of this thread is more in the line of 'God is the supreme and only Divine Will of all of Existence. There is no other will like Satan or the Devil that can exist contesting the Will of God.'
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-11-2015 at 12:12 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  7. #17
    tWebber arnoldo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Yes.
    Will there be another one?

  8. #18
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arnoldo View Post
    Will there be another one?
    As long as humanity exists there will be cycles of Revelation, and Messiahs to reveal the spiritual guidance for humanity as humanity spiritually evolves. This is true for all possible worlds in all possible universes.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  9. #19
    tWebber arnoldo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    As long as humanity exists there will be cycles of Revelation, and Messiahs to reveal the spiritual guidance for humanity as humanity spiritually evolves. This is true for all possible worlds in all possible universes.
    R U the 1 4 this cycle?

    Bahá'u'lláh, the founder of the Bahá'í Faith, explained that the appearance of successive messengers was like the annual coming of Spring, which brings new life to the world which has come to neglect the teachings of the previous messenger.He also used an analogy of the world as the human body, and revelation as a robe of justice and wisdom.

    "Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progre...3%A1%27%C3%AD)

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    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arnoldo View Post
    R U the 1 4 this cycle?
    Do not understand, please exlain.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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