The Baha'i Faith - Satan and the ego

[shunyadragon]

Human nature---would that answer imply that human nature is too diverse (therefore unknowable---undefinable) in the Bahai conception of human nature?

No, be careful how you cite me as 'implying,' it is clearly misleading concerning what I stated. No, though human nature is diverse, it is not unknowable nor undefinable. The nature of humanity can clearly be objectively observed in the natural world.

Gods law/Ethics---You are implying a division between God's law and Ethics-morality---does that mean that Ethics and Morality are NOT part of God's Law in Bahai ?

Morals and ethics are clearly defined as used in the English language, and do vary in human society from culture to culture and over time.



God's Law is a higher standard. Many morals and ethics are based on and derived from God's Law, but many are not. In the modern world many morals and ethics are increasingly based on the higher standard of Baha'i Laws and principles.

For example: God's Law in the Baha'i writings that all kinds of slavery and indentured servitude is forbidden has increasingly become the basis for morals and ethics throughout the world.

If morals and ethics are "human values of behavior" yet human nature is unknowable---are Ethics/Morality relative and/or utilitarian in Bahai paradigm?

No, human nature is NOT entirely unknowable. The nature of and the "human values of behavior" can clearly be objectively observed. It is the ultimate nature of God that is unknowable. God created humanity with the attributes of God. God's Laws represent the evolving foundation for the spiritual nature of humanity. Clearly morals and ethics are descriptive of human standards of behavior, and not consistent.


CXXII Katab-i-Iqan Baha'u'llah

"Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My Words" Baha-u-llah

I do not mind this side step from the topic of the thread, but the topic of this thread is more in the line of 'God is the supreme and only Divine Will of all of Existence. There is no other will like Satan or the Devil that can exist contesting the Will of God.'

[arnoldo]

Yes.

Will there be another one?

[shunyadragon]

Will there be another one?

As long as humanity exists there will be cycles of Revelation, and Messiahs to reveal the spiritual guidance for humanity as humanity spiritually evolves. This is true for all possible worlds in all possible universes.

[arnoldo]

As long as humanity exists there will be cycles of Revelation, and Messiahs to reveal the spiritual guidance for humanity as humanity spiritually evolves. This is true for all possible worlds in all possible universes.

R U the 1 4 this cycle?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progre...3%A1%27%C3%AD)

[shunyadragon]

R U the 1 4 this cycle?

Do not understand, please exlain.

[JonathanL]

Do not understand, please exlain.

"R U the 1 4 this cycle?" = "Are you the one for this cycle?"

[shunyadragon]

"r u the 1 4 this cycle?" = "are you the one for this cycle?"

phfffft!

[arnoldo]

phfffft!

[shunyadragon]

Messianic cycles are ten to hundreds of thousands of years long. The time between Messiahs is usually hundreds if not more than a thousand years apart. Each cycle begins with an 'Adam' or the first Messianic Revelation of that cycle.

The Baha'i Faith and I believe Messianic Revelation has been universal and cyclic with ALL culture so humanity, and Abraham's promise that God will never leave humanity alone without Revelation and guidance is a witness that Revelation is not selective to one place and and limited times in history. Messianic Revelation is the evolving spiritual process of the maturing of humanity over time.

In fact Creation and Revelation are not distinctly different processes, but aspects of God' eternal relationship to God's Creation. As our universe is Created physically and cyclically unfolds and evolves the spiritual nature of our existence cyclically evolves through Revelation.

I have no need to be particularly concerned with another Revelation, because it has only been ~160 years since the beginning of the Baha'i Revelation of this cycle. We have a long way to go to accept the spiritual teaching of this Revelation.

[robrecht]

There have been posts with selective references concerning the view of Satan and Satanic in reference to Judaism without understanding the whole view of what Satan means in the Baha'i writings. I will also refer to references from other religions and their scriptures how this relates to the Baha'i view.

Selective references with the purposes of criticizing the Baha'i Faith without understanding the context in the whole writings of the Baha'i is a very biased way to approach a religion that believes differently. For a better understanding all anyone needed to do was google 'Baha'i Satan' and this reference would be one of the results. ...

Presumably this is directed at me, but, if so, you have misunderstood my purpose. My intent is not to criticize the Baha'i faith, for which I have a great deal of respect, but merely to explore your own personal ability to engage in self-critical theological reflection regarding your beliefs and their temporally bound authoritative expression in your holy scriptures.

Whether you or other Baha'i believe in the reality of Satan as an actual being or metaphor is completely irrelevant to the use of anti-Jewish rhetoric. Whether Satan is real or just an expression of "the dark, animalistic heritage each one of us has, the lower nature that can develop into a monster of selfishness, brutality, lust and so on," the use of such language for Judaism as a whole is still anti-Jewish rhetoric in my opinion. If you do not believe that Jews have a lower nature than anyone else, nor that they are any more likely to develop into monsters of selfishness, brutality, lust and so on, then why use such language to describe Judaism?

When asked, you were not willing to say that Baha'i also are cursed and wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy or that God has laid hold of the Baha'i for their sins, or that he has extinguished in them the spirit of faith, and tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire. I don't think any of this rhetoric shows proper respect for profound Jewish, Christian, Islamic, or Baha'i faiths. You do not agree that this is anti-Jewish rhetoric, so I invited you to ask Jews directly if they feel that this language is an example of anti-Jewish rhetoric. Why not do so?

[shunyadragon]

Presumably this is directed at me, but, if so, you have misunderstood my purpose. My intent is not to criticize the Baha'i faith, for which I have a great deal of respect, but merely to explore your own personal ability to engage in self-critical theological reflection regarding your beliefs and their temporally bound authoritative expression in your holy scriptures.

Whether you or other Baha'i believe in the reality of Satan as an actual being or metaphor is completely irrelevant to the use of anti-Jewish rhetoric. Whether Satan is real or just an expression of "the dark, animalistic heritage each one of us has, the lower nature that can develop into a monster of selfishness, brutality, lust and so on," the use of such language for Judaism as a whole is still anti-Jewish rhetoric in my opinion. If you do not believe that Jews have a lower nature than anyone else, nor that they are any more likely to develop into monsters of selfishness, brutality, lust and so on, then why use such language to describe Judaism?

When asked, you were not willing to say that Baha'i also are cursed and wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy or that God has laid hold of the Baha'i for their sins, or that he has extinguished in them the spirit of faith, and tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire. I don't think any of this rhetoric shows proper respect for profound Jewish, Christian, Islamic, or Baha'i faiths. You do not agree that this is anti-Jewish rhetoric, so I invited you to ask Jews directly if they feel that this language is an example of anti-Jewish rhetoric. Why not do so?

. . . because you are anchored in an ancient world view of what Satanic means, and yes your attack was venomous and and selective showing absolutely no respect for the Baha'i Faith, nor any over all consideration nor understanding of the overall beliefs and teachings in the scriptures. This has been the history of our dialogue, and this response shows no improvement.

You still are neglecting the fact that 'Satan' and 'Satanic' refers to the base Egoistic nature of ALL humans and result is very obvious in history.

You are still living in a glass house chucking boulders totally neglecting and being selective about the history and beliefs of your own faith.

If you were speaking more from an atheist or strong agnostic perspective your line of reasoning would be more honest.

[robrecht]

. . . because you are anchored in an ancient world view of what Satanic means, and yes your attack was venomous and and selective showing absolutely no respect for the Baha'i Faith, nor any over all consideration nor understanding of the overall beliefs and teachings in the scriptures. This has been the history of our dialogue, and this response shows no improvement.

You still are neglecting the fact that 'Satan' and 'Satanic' refers to the base Egoistic nature of ALL humans and result is very obvious in history.

You are still living in a glass house chucking boulders totally neglecting and being selective about the history and beliefs of your own faith.

If you were speaking more from an atheist or strong agnostic perspective your line of reasoning would be more honest.

Whether or not I am honest or dishonest, hypocritical or not, neglectful or selective about the history of the Christian faith, anchored in an ancient worldview or not, respectful of the Baha'i faith and scriptures or venomously attacking it or not, has zero relevance to the question of whether or not the passage in question uses anti-Jewish rhetoric. This is just your typical ad hominem approach when you do not have a good response.

The ad hominem

[arnoldo]

Messianic cycles are ten to hundreds of thousands of years long. The time between Messiahs is usually hundreds if not more than a thousand years apart. Each cycle begins with an 'Adam' or the first Messianic Revelation of that cycle.

The Baha'i Faith and I believe Messianic Revelation has been universal and cyclic with ALL culture so humanity, and Abraham's promise that God will never leave humanity alone without Revelation and guidance is a witness that Revelation is not selective to one place and and limited times in history. Messianic Revelation is the evolving spiritual process of the maturing of humanity over time.

In fact Creation and Revelation are not distinctly different processes, but aspects of God' eternal relationship to God's Creation. As our universe is Created physically and cyclically unfolds and evolves the spiritual nature of our existence cyclically evolves through Revelation.

I have no need to be particularly concerned with another Revelation, because it has only been ~160 years since the beginning of the Baha'i Revelation of this cycle. We have a long way to go to accept the spiritual teaching of this Revelation.

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

[shunyadragon]

Whether or not I am honest or dishonest, hypocritical or not, neglectful or selective about the history of the Christian faith, anchored in an ancient worldview or not, respectful of the Baha'i faith and scriptures or venomously attacking it or not, has zero relevance to the question of whether or not the passage in question uses anti-Jewish rhetoric. This is just your typical ad hominem approach when you do not have a good response.

The ad hominem

I have forgotten nothing! Nothing here has the literal meaning you would propose in your archaic world view of literal meanings of these terms. There is no such thing thing as a literal Satan, Hell, nor nethermost fire. These are parallels of the very real world violence between religions like Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

. . . because you are anchored in an ancient world view of what Satanic means, and yes your attack was venomous and and selective showing absolutely no respect for the Baha'i Faith, nor any over all consideration nor understanding of the overall beliefs and teachings in the scriptures. This has been the history of our dialogue, and this response shows no improvement.

You still are neglecting the fact that 'Satan' and 'Satanic' refers to the base Egoistic nature of ALL humans and result is very obvious in history.

You are still living in a glass house chucking boulders totally neglecting and being selective about the history and beliefs of your own faith.

If you were speaking more from an atheist or strong agnostic perspective your line of reasoning would be more honest.

[arnoldo]

. . I think it should be possible for the Baha'i to allow women to serve in their Universal House of Justice without the need for a new and special revelation from God saying that this is now allowed. . .

'Abdu'l-Baha stance towards women seems pretty progressive for it's time.

The world of humanity is possessed of two wings: the male and the female. So long as these two wings are not equivalent in strength, the bird will not fly. Until womankind reaches the same degree as man, until she enjoys the same arena of activity, extraordinary attainment for humanity will not be realized; humanity cannot wing its way to heights of real attainment. When the two wings or parts become equivalent in strength, enjoying the same prerogatives, the flight of man will be exceedingly lofty and extraordinary... until this equality is established, true progress and attainment for the human race will not be facilitated. ('Abdu'l-Baha, Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 375)
http://www.uhj.net/women-on-uhj.html