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Thread: The Baha'i Faith - Satan and the ego

  1. #21
    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Do not understand, please exlain.
    "R U the 1 4 this cycle?" = "Are you the one for this cycle?"

  2. #22
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrawnus View Post
    "r u the 1 4 this cycle?" = "are you the one for this cycle?"
    phfffft!
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  3. #23
    tWebber arnoldo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    phfffft!
    I guess that means no. Do you have any idea if there's been another messiah since Bahá'u'lláh?

  4. #24
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arnoldo View Post
    I guess that means no. Do you have any idea if there's been another messiah since Bahá'u'lláh?
    Messianic cycles are ten to hundreds of thousands of years long. The time between Messiahs is usually hundreds if not more than a thousand years apart. Each cycle begins with an 'Adam' or the first Messianic Revelation of that cycle.

    The Baha'i Faith and I believe Messianic Revelation has been universal and cyclic with ALL culture so humanity, and Abraham's promise that God will never leave humanity alone without Revelation and guidance is a witness that Revelation is not selective to one place and and limited times in history. Messianic Revelation is the evolving spiritual process of the maturing of humanity over time.

    In fact Creation and Revelation are not distinctly different processes, but aspects of God' eternal relationship to God's Creation. As our universe is Created physically and cyclically unfolds and evolves the spiritual nature of our existence cyclically evolves through Revelation.

    I have no need to be particularly concerned with another Revelation, because it has only been ~160 years since the beginning of the Baha'i Revelation of this cycle. We have a long way to go to accept the spiritual teaching of this Revelation.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-13-2015 at 01:35 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  5. #25
    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    There have been posts with selective references concerning the view of Satan and Satanic in reference to Judaism without understanding the whole view of what Satan means in the Baha'i writings. I will also refer to references from other religions and their scriptures how this relates to the Baha'i view.

    Selective references with the purposes of criticizing the Baha'i Faith without understanding the context in the whole writings of the Baha'i is a very biased way to approach a religion that believes differently. For a better understanding all anyone needed to do was google 'Baha'i Satan' and this reference would be one of the results. ...
    Presumably this is directed at me, but, if so, you have misunderstood my purpose. My intent is not to criticize the Baha'i faith, for which I have a great deal of respect, but merely to explore your own personal ability to engage in self-critical theological reflection regarding your beliefs and their temporally bound authoritative expression in your holy scriptures.

    Whether you or other Baha'i believe in the reality of Satan as an actual being or metaphor is completely irrelevant to the use of anti-Jewish rhetoric. Whether Satan is real or just an expression of "the dark, animalistic heritage each one of us has, the lower nature that can develop into a monster of selfishness, brutality, lust and so on," the use of such language for Judaism as a whole is still anti-Jewish rhetoric in my opinion. If you do not believe that Jews have a lower nature than anyone else, nor that they are any more likely to develop into monsters of selfishness, brutality, lust and so on, then why use such language to describe Judaism?

    When asked, you were not willing to say that Baha'i also are cursed and wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy or that God has laid hold of the Baha'i for their sins, or that he has extinguished in them the spirit of faith, and tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire. I don't think any of this rhetoric shows proper respect for profound Jewish, Christian, Islamic, or Baha'i faiths. You do not agree that this is anti-Jewish rhetoric, so I invited you to ask Jews directly if they feel that this language is an example of anti-Jewish rhetoric. Why not do so?
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

  6. #26
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robrecht View Post
    Presumably this is directed at me, but, if so, you have misunderstood my purpose. My intent is not to criticize the Baha'i faith, for which I have a great deal of respect, but merely to explore your own personal ability to engage in self-critical theological reflection regarding your beliefs and their temporally bound authoritative expression in your holy scriptures.

    Whether you or other Baha'i believe in the reality of Satan as an actual being or metaphor is completely irrelevant to the use of anti-Jewish rhetoric. Whether Satan is real or just an expression of "the dark, animalistic heritage each one of us has, the lower nature that can develop into a monster of selfishness, brutality, lust and so on," the use of such language for Judaism as a whole is still anti-Jewish rhetoric in my opinion. If you do not believe that Jews have a lower nature than anyone else, nor that they are any more likely to develop into monsters of selfishness, brutality, lust and so on, then why use such language to describe Judaism?

    When asked, you were not willing to say that Baha'i also are cursed and wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy or that God has laid hold of the Baha'i for their sins, or that he has extinguished in them the spirit of faith, and tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire. I don't think any of this rhetoric shows proper respect for profound Jewish, Christian, Islamic, or Baha'i faiths. You do not agree that this is anti-Jewish rhetoric, so I invited you to ask Jews directly if they feel that this language is an example of anti-Jewish rhetoric. Why not do so?
    . . . because you are anchored in an ancient world view of what Satanic means, and yes your attack was venomous and and selective showing absolutely no respect for the Baha'i Faith, nor any over all consideration nor understanding of the overall beliefs and teachings in the scriptures. This has been the history of our dialogue, and this response shows no improvement.

    You still are neglecting the fact that 'Satan' and 'Satanic' refers to the base Egoistic nature of ALL humans and result is very obvious in history.

    You are still living in a glass house chucking boulders totally neglecting and being selective about the history and beliefs of your own faith.

    If you were speaking more from an atheist or strong agnostic perspective your line of reasoning would be more honest.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-13-2015 at 05:38 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  7. #27
    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    . . . because you are anchored in an ancient world view of what Satanic means, and yes your attack was venomous and and selective showing absolutely no respect for the Baha'i Faith, nor any over all consideration nor understanding of the overall beliefs and teachings in the scriptures. This has been the history of our dialogue, and this response shows no improvement.

    You still are neglecting the fact that 'Satan' and 'Satanic' refers to the base Egoistic nature of ALL humans and result is very obvious in history.

    You are still living in a glass house chucking boulders totally neglecting and being selective about the history and beliefs of your own faith.

    If you were speaking more from an atheist or strong agnostic perspective your line of reasoning would be more honest.
    Whether or not I am honest or dishonest, hypocritical or not, neglectful or selective about the history of the Christian faith, anchored in an ancient worldview or not, respectful of the Baha'i faith and scriptures or venomously attacking it or not, has zero relevance to the question of whether or not the passage in question uses anti-Jewish rhetoric. This is just your typical ad hominem approach when you do not have a good response.

    The ad hominem nature of your approach is compounded by the fact that these are all completely false accusations against me. If memory serves me correctly, I have only ever been critical of two things about the Baha'i faith. I think it should be possible for the Baha'i to allow women to serve in their Universal House of Justice without the need for a new and special revelation from God saying that this is now allowed. And I do not like Bahá'u'lláh's anti-Jewish rhetoric in this particular passage. These two criticisms are not in any way venomous; nor are they hypocritical. I am critical of these same exact things, and plenty more, when found among Christians or any other people of faith.

    Nor did I neglect the fact that you consider 'Satan' and 'Satanic' to refer to the egotistic nature of all humanity; as I said, I consider it irrelevant to the question of whether or not the passage in question uses anti-Jewish rhetoric. If you were willing to say that Baha'i also are cursed and wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy and that God has laid hold of the Baha'i for their sins, and that he has extinguished in them the spirit of faith, and tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire, then it might have some relevance. Have you forgotten that?
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

  8. #28
    tWebber arnoldo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Messianic cycles are ten to hundreds of thousands of years long. The time between Messiahs is usually hundreds if not more than a thousand years apart. Each cycle begins with an 'Adam' or the first Messianic Revelation of that cycle.

    The Baha'i Faith and I believe Messianic Revelation has been universal and cyclic with ALL culture so humanity, and Abraham's promise that God will never leave humanity alone without Revelation and guidance is a witness that Revelation is not selective to one place and and limited times in history. Messianic Revelation is the evolving spiritual process of the maturing of humanity over time.

    In fact Creation and Revelation are not distinctly different processes, but aspects of God' eternal relationship to God's Creation. As our universe is Created physically and cyclically unfolds and evolves the spiritual nature of our existence cyclically evolves through Revelation.

    I have no need to be particularly concerned with another Revelation, because it has only been ~160 years since the beginning of the Baha'i Revelation of this cycle. We have a long way to go to accept the spiritual teaching of this Revelation.
    Thank you for your thoughtful response.

  9. #29
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robrecht View Post
    Whether or not I am honest or dishonest, hypocritical or not, neglectful or selective about the history of the Christian faith, anchored in an ancient worldview or not, respectful of the Baha'i faith and scriptures or venomously attacking it or not, has zero relevance to the question of whether or not the passage in question uses anti-Jewish rhetoric. This is just your typical ad hominem approach when you do not have a good response.

    The ad hominem nature of your approach is compounded by the fact that these are all completely false accusations against me. If memory serves me correctly, I have only ever been critical of two things about the Baha'i faith. I think it should be possible for the Baha'i to allow women to serve in their Universal House of Justice without the need for a new and special revelation from God saying that this is now allowed. And I do not like Bahá'u'lláh's anti-Jewish rhetoric in this particular passage. These two criticisms are not in any way venomous; nor are they hypocritical. I am critical of these same exact things, and plenty more, when found among Christians or any other people of faith.

    Nor did I neglect the fact that you consider 'Satan' and 'Satanic' to refer to the egotistic nature of all humanity; as I said, I consider it irrelevant to the question of whether or not the passage in question uses anti-Jewish rhetoric. If you were willing to say that Baha'i also are cursed and wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy and that God has laid hold of the Baha'i for their sins, and that he has extinguished in them the spirit of faith, and tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire, then it might have some relevance. Have you forgotten that?
    I have forgotten nothing! Nothing here has the literal meaning you would propose in your archaic world view of literal meanings of these terms. There is no such thing thing as a literal Satan, Hell, nor nethermost fire. These are parallels of the very real world violence between religions like Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

    . . . because you are anchored in an ancient world view of what Satanic means, and yes your attack was venomous and and selective showing absolutely no respect for the Baha'i Faith, nor any over all consideration nor understanding of the overall beliefs and teachings in the scriptures. This has been the history of our dialogue, and this response shows no improvement.

    You still are neglecting the fact that 'Satan' and 'Satanic' refers to the base Egoistic nature of ALL humans and result is very obvious in history.

    You are still living in a glass house chucking boulders totally neglecting and being selective about the history and beliefs of your own faith.

    If you were speaking more from an atheist or strong agnostic perspective your line of reasoning would be more honest.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  10. #30
    tWebber arnoldo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robrecht View Post
    . . I think it should be possible for the Baha'i to allow women to serve in their Universal House of Justice without the need for a new and special revelation from God saying that this is now allowed. . .
    'Abdu'l-Baha stance towards women seems pretty progressive for it's time.

    The world of humanity is possessed of two wings: the male and the female. So long as these two wings are not equivalent in strength, the bird will not fly. Until womankind reaches the same degree as man, until she enjoys the same arena of activity, extraordinary attainment for humanity will not be realized; humanity cannot wing its way to heights of real attainment. When the two wings or parts become equivalent in strength, enjoying the same prerogatives, the flight of man will be exceedingly lofty and extraordinary... until this equality is established, true progress and attainment for the human race will not be facilitated. ('Abdu'l-Baha, Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 375)
    http://www.uhj.net/women-on-uhj.html
    Quote Originally Posted by robrecht View Post
    And I do not like Bahá'u'lláh's anti-Jewish rhetoric in this particular passage. These two criticisms are not in any way venomous; nor are they hypocritical. I am critical of these same exact things, and plenty more, when found among Christians or any other people of faith.
    Can you give an example of Bahá'u'lláh's anti-Jewish rhetoric?

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