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The Baha'i Faith - Satan and the ego

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  • #31
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    You still are neglecting the fact that 'Satan' and 'Satanic' refers to the base Egoistic nature of ALL humans and result is very obvious in history.
    You fail to take into account the fact that it is only Baha'i that considers 'Satan' and 'Satanic' to refer to the base Egoistic nature of ALL humans. This is not a fact but a belief. No more valid than the belief that you disparage.
    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

    Comment


    • #32
      [QUOTE=arnoldo;273411]'Abdu'l-Baha stance towards women seems pretty progressive for it's time.




      Can you give an example of Bahá'u'lláh's anti-Jewish rhetoric?
      He actually gave his example, and I am sure he will re post it for you, but did not understand the translation of the terms used. He views them in literal terms of ancient Christian concepts. As I explained. . . Nothing in the citation has the literal meaning you would propose in his archaic world view of literal meanings of these terms. There is no such thing thing as a literal Satan, Hell, nor nethermost fire. These are parallels of the very real world violence between religions like Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Again, Satan is the Ego in the Baha'i view.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        I have forgotten nothing! Nothing here has the literal meaning you would propose in your archaic world view of literal meanings of these terms. There is no such thing thing as a literal Satan, Hell, nor nethermost fire. These are parallels of the very real world violence between religions like Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

        . . . because you are anchored in an ancient world view of what Satanic means, and yes your attack was venomous and and selective showing absolutely no respect for the Baha'i Faith, nor any over all consideration nor understanding of the overall beliefs and teachings in the scriptures. This has been the history of our dialogue, and this response shows no improvement.

        You still are neglecting the fact that 'Satan' and 'Satanic' refers to the base Egoistic nature of ALL humans and result is very obvious in history.

        You are still living in a glass house chucking boulders totally neglecting and being selective about the history and beliefs of your own faith.

        If you were speaking more from an atheist or strong agnostic perspective your line of reasoning would be more honest.
        Now you're just making up more stuff. I have not proposed any literal interpretation, nor would I. Whether you intend the words literally or metaphorically, it is still anti-Jewish rhetoric. If you would like to prove that your metaphors are not in fact anti-Jewish rhetoric, all you need to do is ask Jews if they consider the metaphorical rhetoric to be anti-Jewish or not. You won't do that. Nor will you use the same metaphorical rhetoric for Baha'i faithful.
        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by robrecht View Post
          Now you're just making up more stuff. I have not proposed any literal interpretation, nor would I. Whether you intend the words literally or metaphorically, it is still anti-Jewish rhetoric. If you would like to prove that your metaphors are not in fact anti-Jewish rhetoric, all you need to do is ask Jews if they consider the metaphorical rhetoric to be anti-Jewish or not. You won't do that. Nor will you use the same metaphorical rhetoric for Baha'i faithful.
          Your repeating yourself like a broken record and it is meaningless in understanding scripture. I will have to conclude you simply do not care to understand the scripture and the Baha'i belief system.

          Nothing in the Baha'i writings remotely compares to the NT and the history of Christianity
          Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-13-2015, 07:35 PM.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by arnoldo View Post
            'Abdu'l-Baha stance towards women seems pretty progressive for it's time.
            I agree. All the more reason why it shouldn't require a new revelation from God for them to reflect upon his progressive views of the past and continue to apply them to the continued evolution of leadership roles for women in the rest of society.

            Originally posted by arnoldo View Post
            Can you give an example of Bahá'u'lláh's anti-Jewish rhetoric?
            He said that the Jews are cursed and wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy and that God has laid hold of the Jews for their sins, and that he has extinguished in them the spirit of faith, and tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire.

            http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-13.html.utf8?
            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              Your repeating yourself like a broken record and it is meaningless in understanding scripture.
              At least I do not resort to false ad hominem accusations.

              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              Nothing in the Baha'i writings remotely compares to the NT and the history of Christianity
              Very true.
              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                I agree. All the more reason why it shouldn't require a new revelation from God for them to reflect upon his progressive views of the past and continue to apply them to the continued evolution of leadership roles for women in the rest of society.
                Since there are not women in the Roman Church in positions of authority except heads of convents under the authority of male Bishops and advisory positions. That's zero positions of authority with not a glimmer of change.
                Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-13-2015, 07:46 PM.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  Since there are not women in the Roman Church in positions of authority except heads of convents under the authority of male Bishops and advisory positions. That's zero positions of authority with not a glimmer of change.
                  Very true.
                  βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                  ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                  אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                    At least I do not resort to false ad hominem accusations.
                    True accusations are not ad hominem. You fail to put things in the perspective of the whole.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      True accusations are not ad hominem. You fail to put things in the perspective of the whole.
                      There can indeed be true ad hominem statements which are not valid arguments as well as false ad hominem arguments. The ones you have used against me are false.
                      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        ad ho·mi·nem
                        /ad ˈhämənəm/
                        adverb & adjective

                        1. (of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
                        "vicious ad hominem attacks"

                        2. relating to or associated with a particular person.
                        "the office was created ad hominem for Fenton"

                        Origin: Latin, literally ‘to the person.
                        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                          . . . He said that the Jews are cursed and wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy and that God has laid hold of the Jews for their sins, and that he has extinguished in them the spirit of faith, and tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire.

                          http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-13.html.utf8?
                          When read in context it's taking about the result of rejecting Jesus as the Messiah. The Apostle Paul states this concerning Israel.

                          For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
                          Romans 11:25
                          and in reference to gentile unbelievers. .

                          In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
                          2 Corinthians 4:4

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            You have often selectively criticized the Baha'i Faith for not allowing women in the Universal House of Justice, but again failed to put things in perspective of the failure of reform movements to promote women in secular governments and churches in general compared to leadership role of women in the Baha'i Faith.

                            Figures showing the role of women with authority in governments and churches are dismally low worldwide including leading western countries. Unless there are quotas mandated by governments. Ranges in most churches hover around a dismal ~10-12 percent or less. Progressive churches in the west like UU are at ~24-30%. Add large major dominant churches at 0%, the chances of reform are dismal.

                            http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/quick_question3.html

                            Quotas in some governments show dismal results. When Russia established a quota for women at 30% the result was 30%. when the quota was removed it dropped to ~17%.

                            Women in leadership positions in National Spiritual Assemblies in 1950 (when record began to kept) to the present have consistently been on average for the world ~32% and over 40% in recent years. Europe and the America's is ~45-50%.

                            The Baha'i Faith is the only religion with the principle of the equality of women at it's core, and no quotas. When the Baha'i Faith was revealed the percentages were close to zero across the board.

                            The influence of the Baha'i Faith has been real and documented over the last ~160 years, but reform remains a dismal means of change when the principle does not lie at the heart of the Revelation.

                            In Judaism and Islam the statistics are even more dismal.
                            Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-13-2015, 08:31 PM.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by arnoldo View Post
                              When read in context it's taking about the result of rejecting Jesus as the Messiah. The Apostle Paul states this concerning Israel.

                              and in reference to gentile unbelievers. .
                              Which is why we have theologians who can reflect on such issues, eg, leading the Pope to express gratitude for the Jews maintaining their Jewish faith or the Catholic bishops in Britain calling for an end to prayer or the conversion of the Jews. Some might need authority figures to make it OK for them to engage in common sense evaluation of their scriptures and to engage in thoughtful and open dialogue with people of other faiths but others can come to the same conclusions on their own. Shuny does not hesitate to criticize the faith of others so I merely challenge him to engage in his own self-critical theological reflection regarding his beliefs and their temporally bound authoritative expression in his holy scriptures.
                              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                                You have often selectively criticized the Baha'i Faith for not allowing women in the Universal House of Justice, but again failed to put things in perspective of the failure of reform movements to promote women in secular governments and churches in general compared to leadership role of women in the Baha'i Faith.

                                Figures showing the role of women with authority in governments and churches are dismally low worldwide including leading western countries. Unless there are quotas mandated by governments. Ranges in most churches hover around a dismal ~10-12 percent or less. Progressive churches in the west like UU are at ~24-30%. Add large major dominant churches at 0%, the chances of reform are dismal.

                                http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/quick_question3.html

                                Quotas in some governments show dismal results. When Russia established a quota for women at 30% the result was 30%. when the quota was removed it dropped to ~17%.

                                Women in leadership positions in National Spiritual Assemblies in 1950 (when record began to kept) to the present have consistently been on average for the world ~32% and over 40% in recent years. Europe and the America's is ~45-50%.

                                The Baha'i Faith is the only religion with the principle of the equality of women at it's core, and no quotas. When the Baha'i Faith was revealed the percentages were close to zero across the board.

                                The influence of the Baha'i Faith has been real and documented over the last ~160 years, but reform remains a dismal means of change when the principle does not lie at the heart of the Revelation.

                                In Judaism and Islam the statistics are even more dismal.
                                You assume that I have not also been critical of the very same things within Christianity, but that is not true, and at considerable personal cost.
                                βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                                ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                                אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                                Comment

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